[32519]

I’ve been running some random deals through BBOs deal generator to get an idea of the problems facing the player in 4th seat when the auction goes e.g.
1♥ (promising 4+ ♠)
Pass
2♠
? Now what

I confess that it is often very tough for the player sitting 4th to balance or not on borderline hands. To get this thread going, how about starting with the much easier decisions? We will get to the tougher ones later.

So for starters:

Hand 1: A 3-suited takeout double

---

At this point it is not clear what South will do next, even with his minimum count.
E/W can take make 9 tricks in ♣.
If E/W botch up the defence, 3♠ is going to make.
South will probably up the ante with his distribution and nice ♠ suit.
The defence will need to draw trumps every time they get in to stop the ♦ ruffs.

Hand 2: Leaping Michaels
Before actually presenting the hand, some pointers from the system notes –
1. In some cases, responder may chose to make a single raise holding a balanced hand with 4-card ♠ support and between 3-5 HCP.
2. The advantage of allowing the raise to 2♠ on this hand type is that partner cannot be passed out in a 3-card ♥ fit with an eight card ♠ fit available.
3. Bidding like has dangers of its own (which I have no intention of mentioning here)

So this hand qualifies for the 3-5 HCP single raise with 4-card trump support.

---

Hand 3: 2NT for the Minors

---

MOSCITO may easily gain here if E/W can't find the ♦ slam. An alternative would be for East to jump to 4NT with a hand like this to ensure that at minimum, game is found.

[daveharty]

A priest, a rabbi, a Buddhist monk, a blonde, a plastic surgeon, and a one-legged pirate with a parrot on his shoulder all walk into a bar. The bartender looks up and says, "What is this, some kind of joke?"

[Free]

Sorry, but I don't get the angle here. Are you claiming that MOSCITO handles defense very well, or that you want to improve your defense against MOSCITO?

Either way, raising to 2M with 3-5HCP and a 4 card suit is not the philosophy of MOSCITO. When Richard and I played MOSCITO, we promised exactly 3 card raise. Why? Because opener can have juicy penalty Doubles when he holds only 4M. If you can have such a trash hand, you'll lose more than you can ever gain. I prefer to play 1♥ undoubled in whatever fit rather than at least 2M on trash. Don't forget that opener is allowed to continue the bidding as well, so you run quite a lot of risk.

[Vampyr]

Is MOSCITO very popular where you play? Is it widely permitted?

[hrothgar]

32519, on 2012-September-22, 08:38, said:

So this hand qualifies for the 3-5 HCP single raise with 4-card trump support.

Neither of the hands with 4 card support that you post are suitable for a raise to 2M

The first hand is a clear cut pass
(You have no acceptable call if your partner doubles for penalty)

The second hand should probably pass, though I wouldn't get bent out of shape over a decision to bid 3♠

[hrothgar]

32519, on 2012-September-22, 08:38, said:

At this point it is not clear what South will do next, even with his minimum count.
E/W can take make 9 tricks in ♣.
If E/W botch up the defence, 3♠ is going to make.
South will probably up the ante with his distribution and nice ♠ suit.
The defence will need to draw trumps every time they get in to stop the ♦ ruffs.

South knows that NS have an 8 card Spade fit and has a pretty clear cut pass
If East/West land in a club contract, South might consider balancing in Diamonds.

[hrothgar]

FWIW, I can't help but think you'd be better served spending some time learning basic competitive bidding before trying to devise your own methods. For that matter, basic reading comprehension doesn't seem to be in your wheelhouse...

[the hog]

The op has again shown his lack of knowledge of Moscito. As Richard says, you would be better off learning basic defence first. I suspect the op is trolling anyway.

[32519]

Free, on 2012-September-22, 13:15, said:

Raising to 2M with 3-5 HCP and a 4 card suit is not the philosophy of MOSCITO. When Richard and I played MOSCITO, we promised exactly 3 card raise. Why? Because opener can have juicy penalty Doubles when he holds only 4M. If you can have such a trash hand, you'll lose more than you can ever gain. I prefer to play 1♥ undoubled in whatever fit rather than at least 2M on trash. Don't forget that opener is allowed to continue the bidding as well, so you run quite a lot of risk.

hrothgar, on 2012-September-22, 18:07, said:

Neither of the hands with 4 card support that you post are suitable for a raise to 2M. The first hand is a clear cut pass(You have no acceptable call if your partner doubles for penalty)The second hand should probably pass, though I wouldn't get bent out of shape over a decision to bid 3♠

I’m sorry, but I don’t buy this protest from either of you. Check out page 23 of your own system notes. In all fairness, you do go on to discuss the dangers of bidding this way. Hand 2 measured against the example hands in the notes is probably a shade light, but at equal (non) vulnerability, who knows whether or not North will up the ante putting more pressure on East. The pressure cooker scenario is where MOSCITO gets plenty of gains.

[Free]

32519, on 2012-September-22, 23:25, said:

I’m sorry, but I don’t buy this protest from either of you.

Sorry for sharing my years of experience playing the system online and face to face. You might want to realize that the notes you're referring to are more than a decade old.

Anyway, good luck buying the stuff you want to hear and ignoring the rest...

[32519]

Free, on 2012-September-23, 02:54, said:

You might want to realize that the notes you're referring to are more than a decade old.

Good to hear that the notes have been updated. For the players still using the old set, I believe that it is important for the opposition to know that responses on a 3-5 HCP hand with 4-card trump support is possible. When the player in 4th seat makes e.g. a 3-suited takeout double and his partner has a hand showing some life, the opposition should then be able to work out that opener's partner has responded on crap.

[hrothgar]

32519, on 2012-September-22, 23:25, said:

I’m sorry, but I don’t buy this protest from either of you. Check out page 23 of your own system notes. In all fairness, you do go on to discuss the dangers of bidding this way. Hand 2 measured against the example hands in the notes is probably a shade light, but at equal (non) vulnerability, who knows whether or not North will up the ante putting more pressure on East. The pressure cooker scenario is where MOSCITO gets plenty of gains.

You do understand the author of said notes and two of my long term partners are all saying that you are mistaken in your understanding.

FWIW, I reviewed my notes before posting to make sure that I hadn't recommended a 2♠ bid with the hands in question. I stand by my statements that a single raise is not warranted with either of the example hands.

• First, I describe this is as an option, not a requirement
  
• Second, I spend a lot of time talking about the dangers of such a style
  
• Third, I explicitly state that with 0-3 HCP, the opps will typically have game in hand, allowing you to comfortably pass partner's transfer opening. Your second hand falls into this category
  
• Finally, your three jack hand is a lot weaker than the examples that I provide

I am attaching the relevant section of my notes.

Quote

Responder's single raise shows three card spade support and ~7-10 HCP.In some cases, responder may chose to make a single raise holding a balanced hand with four card spade support and between 3-5 HCP. For example, I would consider a raise to 2S holding the following hands.

♠ Q532
♥ 73
♦ Q532
♣ 742

♠ KJ43
♥ T75
♦ 642
♣ 984


♠ 9853
♥ K4
♦ J653
♣ 8643

The advantage of allowing the raise to 2♠ on this hand type is that partner can not be passed out in a three card heart fit with an eight card spade fit available. However, there are two main dangers to making the raise. The first is that partner is going to expect substantially more HCP strength and one less trump. You are going to be very poorly positioned if partner decided to reopen the bidding with a penalty double. In particular, if you decide to run to 3M, the opponents will often be able to find an easy penalty double of their own. A second danger is that partner is comparatively likely to make a game try.[The weaker responder's hand is, the more likely that opener will have sufficient strength to explore game after a single raise] While your hand does provide an extra trump, it will be significantly weaker than expected. Holding a very weak hand with four card trump support and 0-3 HCP, responder can often pass comfortably known that the opponents should have game in hand.

[32519]

What is your recommended defence to MOSCITO for the player in 4th seat? Maybe we can just abandon this entire exercise. Did you submit anything to the ACBL when they asked for a suggested defence?

[hrothgar]

This topic never came to the forefront (Probably because the ACBL doesn't require suggested defenses to natural raises)

[awm]

I'm not convinced that this thread has much do to with Moscito.

On hands one and three, I would certainly open 1♠ and raise to 2♠ in a wide range of "standard" systems, putting East to essentially the same problem. The second hand is perhaps unusual because many people play five card majors (so wouldn't open the south hand) and most who play four-card majors wouldn't raise with the north hand.... but the Moscito players wouldn't raise on this one either! And if you move a few cards around (give south five spades, ten points, and some shape... give north three spades and five points) you could get an opening and raise in a standard system and again put east to a guess.

Of course, it's reasonable to ask what methods you should play after 1M-P-2M in fourth seat. It seems reasonable and popular to play 2NT for two-suited takeout (some prefer to play hearts + minor rather than both minors) and leaping michaels. Obviously you will have some hard guesses in these sorts of auctions.

My view is that while many opponents might open light and might raise on garbage, the combination of the two is actually pretty rare. Further, opponents who do this (open on garbage, raise on garbage) will often get themselves into trouble on constructive auctions where one of them has garbage and the other one doesn't, because it's hard to cope with the wide range response. For the most part my advice is to "stay fixed" if opponents open/raise on garbage, and rely on the fact that they will get in trouble on other hands due to this style to compensate for occasionally getting "robbed."

As for Moscito, the one advice I'd give in fourth seat is to be careful of the fact that opponents might not have an 8+ card fit for the bid and raise (an issue that none of your example hands illustrates). To cope with this, I'd recommend doubling slightly more (since double gives partner the option to penalize them in a non-fit when trumps break badly) and overcalling with your own suit slightly less (because you don't have the near-guarantee of a fit that comes from opponents having a fit, and you might get doubled for a number). But for the most part I wouldn't worry a lot about this.

[mgoetze]

I, for one, am glad that 32519 is advancing the state of defensive bidding theory for our benefit. I hope he tackles the diabolical ACOL bidding system next as that one has really been giving me headaches, especially the openings which promise only 4 cards in a major (but it's completely different than MOSCITO of course).

[gwnn]

32519 breaks your legs then offers you crutches.

[32519]

Adam, where were you earlier? I like this suggestion of yours. Got anything to add? +1 from me.

[Vampyr]

32519, if you are so sure about your method I will try it out at the Secret Bridge Olympics. At the moment I am scheduled to go, but I have not got an idea of my own to bring.

[32519]

Adam’s suggestion for using 2NT to show ♥ and an undisclosed minor could possibly be refined further as follows –
1. Use 2NT for these sorts of 2-suited hands in the 5-15 HCP range. The frequency of occurrence = 1.56%.
2. Use Leaping Michaels for these sorts of 2-suited hands in the 16+ HCP range. The frequency of occurrence here is very low at only 0.16%.

Which leaves us now with the dilemma of how to show both minors?
1. Big minor suited hands (either in distribution or HCP strength or both) can go via 4NT.
2. Intermediate minor suited hands (either in distribution or HCP strength) can go via 4♣ as either a) Pass/Correct, or b) game invite.
3. Weakish minor suited hands are the problem child. They will be left to the judgement of the player sitting in 4th seat to a) make a natural 3-level overcall in the better suit (this shouldn’t pose too much of a problem with a 6/5 distribution), or b) pass at unfavourable vulnerability.