[benlessard]

How would you bid this one ?

---

MP in a club field.

your 3C is pretty much a GF catch-all (2NT by you would be GF and show at least Qx in clubs and 3D would be the only non GF bid. IMO Partner 3D could be 5422 with no club stopper.

Do you agree with 3S or you would bid 3H ?

Over 3S...
3NT = undiscussed but my guess is stiff A of clubs.
4C = 5530 or 6430 or 5440
4D would be keycard in D
4H would be pick a game (4S or 5D)

over 4C

4D is keycards
4H is undiscussed
4S is to play
5NT is PAS

[mike777]

agree with the bidding, but sure I may show Ace of h rather than QS. now I will bid rkc in your case 4d.

I rarely show a void but this time I will with 6c over rkc; odd number of keycards. 5nt would show even number.

I note I dont have to worry about not showing the QD which makes me lean towards showing my void.

--


edit I guess in your style 4c already showed the void so no need to show it again.

I suppose at MP you might be tempted to rebid 3h not 3d.

[Codo]

If 3 ♦ was a sort of a catch all and 5422 still possible, I would bid 3 ♥ to show my support for that major first.
No I know that my partner has a real diamond fit and a club chicane. Isthis enough for 6 Diamonds? It is borderline, but I would try 4 ♦ on a good day and 4 ♥ on a bad one.

[JLOGIC]

You have forced weird and bad agreements upon us. I mean, 4C as 6430 or 5530 or 5440 but we cannot find out? lol

Probably 3H was a better bid than 3S since it is cheaper, and gives us extra room (if partner has 6430 or good spades and 5431 he can bid 3S, if he has 5H he can bid 4C etc).

If I understood you correctly, 3C effectively denied club values? In that case maybe there is merit to partner bidding 3H rather than the normal looking 3D. The idea being, you can next bid 4D (or 6D if partner raises hearts) which is cheaper/more effective than bidding 3D first, and also you should imo imply strong majors and weak diamonds by bidding that way, with Hxx of diamonds you would certainly bid 3D, North is obviously driving to slam and thinking grand if his partner denied a club stop and showed a GF, so he will simply be trying to put partner in a good position to bid a grand, and also to possibly avoid diamonds if it's right.

Your methods over 3D 3S also make this seem much better since apparently I cannot ever show my shape later, only that I am 6430 5530 or 5440 and partner can then bid keycard or game or jump to a slam without ever knowing which it is.

[Zelandakh]

What would 2♠ be as South's rebid - not promising 3 surely? Then you could perhaps follow up with 3♥ to show 2353/2362. As far as a 2NT rebid goes, is Jxx less than Qx? I have to say that I do not really understand how the methods fit together so it is hard to comment. Since 3♦ would be weaker, the only thing that makes any sense to me whatsoever is that South is trying to show very strong diamonds by taking this route, perhaps something like xx/Ax/AKQxxxx/xx. The only other posibility that suggests itself, albeit not without some discussion, is for all hands with 2 spades to go via a 2♠ rebid. Then this 3♠ can be used as a grope. In either case, 3♥ is surely a better choice.

[Codo]

I am not convinced that 2 ♠ should show 2. I would hate to bid 3 ♠ with all spade raises I may hold. I would like to reserve this bid for GF and SI with a fit.

[PhilKing]

Zelandakh, on 2012-September-19, 03:56, said:

What would 2♠ be as South's rebid - not promising 3 surely? The only other posibility that suggests itself, albeit not without some discussion, is for all hands with 2 spades to go via a 2♠ rebid. Then this 3♠ can be used as a grope.

In either case, 3♥ is surely a better choice.

I defeinitely agree with all this.

Even for players who play "standard" continuations after 2/1, it makes sense to use 2♠ in auctions like this as fourth suit forcing, so it shows 0-2 spades. It's a simple zero cost, low memory change.

The actual fourth suit now shows spade support (15+) and 3♠ shows at most a bad 15.

On the actual hand, I NEVER have five hearts when I bid 3♦. I can show the diamonds later, but often not the fifth heart without it sounding like a cue.

Over 3♥ partner has a pretty borderline 4♣ bid (only try available, last train in effect), which should get us to slam, but not necesarily the best one.

[benlessard]

1S--2D--2H--2S is 3cards GF (but I would like to hear more about the style where 2S can be 2. You only do that with 23(53) shapes ?)

its 2/1 except when responder repeat his suit (no 1Nt forcing) and (pointless here)2Nt can be Qx,Qxx (Jxx doesnt count) so that we are not wrongsiding when Kxx/Axx vs Qx.

I bid 3S rather than 3H because if partner is 5530 Im aiming for 6/7D since I might get rid of a slow heart loser with the spades. Also If I have a S loser and a good red suit 6D is better to deal against 4-1 breaks in the red because I dont get tapped. If partner isnt 5530 S or D are best and I felt that bidding H will only murky the waters.

Ex what would
1S-2D
2H-3C
3D-3H
3S-4S show ?
A stiff S honnor or 2353 Im really not sure.

In a strong field I would be worried that slam would be bid at all table and be more worried that 6H beat 6D but I was in a club where every slam bid is a good score. (The slam was bid only at 1 other table out of 7)

Quote

You have forced weird and bad agreements upon us. I mean, 4C as 6430 or 5530 or 5440 but we cannot find out? lol

Our agreement that 4m is keycard & 5NT PAS. Anything more specific than this is undiscussed since It was a casual partnership.

Feel free to bid it in your system if you find the hand interesting.

Anyway there was the not totally clear sequence for me that ive found interesting.

1S-2D
2H-3C
3D-3S
??

Do you play that 3S show Hx or it could be any doubleton ?
is 3NT 5422 ? so that if partner is 1354/1363 with baby clubs you can play 3nt.
is 4H patterning 5530 or pick a game (not sure between 4S or 5D) ?
is 4Nt keycard for S (and for keycard in D you bid 4D followed by 4NT

[mike777]

Ex what would
1S-2D
2H-3C
3D-3H
3S-4S show ?
A stiff S honnor or 2353 Im really not sure

to avoid this issue I think north needs to bid exclusion with 5c over 3h, d's are trump.

btw agree strongly that 2s over 2h should be slam try in spades not some grope.

[TWO4BRIDGE]

What am I missing?
Why isn't Opener rebidding ♥ to show 5 cards ?

[mike777]

TWO4BRIDGE, on 2012-September-19, 11:14, said:

What am I missing?
Why isn't Opener rebidding ♥ to show 5 cards ?

bidding 3d may simplify the auction at the cost of missing a 5-3 h fit.

Pls note in the OP that 4d over 3nt looks to be rkc in d by north but who knows.

[Zelandakh]

benlessard, on 2012-September-19, 08:43, said:

1S--2D--2H--2S is 3cards GF (but I would like to hear more about the style where 2S can be 2. You only do that with 23(53) shapes ?)

I think I would start with a simple woolly definition: 2♠ = 3 spades and extras or 2 spades and no better rebid. Then an immediate jump to 3♠ shows 3 spades and a minimum while bidding 2♠ followed by 3♠ shows 3 spades and extras. 2♠ followed by anything else is now 2 spades. This has a fairly minimal cost if you already pattern out over a 2♠ rebid since Opener is making the same call regardless - we only lose some 3rd round calls for Responder. it is more of a cost if you start cuing at the 3 level but it is arguable if that is a great idea with Responder's hand essentially unknown. There is an additional knock-on benefit within the OP's style too in that 1♠ - 2♦; 2♥ - 3♣ can now guarantee 6 diamonds, providing you are willing to rebid 2NT with any 1354. This claws back some of the damage done to our 2/1 auctions by 3♦ being non-forcing.

From this basic definition, some practise hands should pretty quickly be able to tell you whether it is better to pass only the 2353 hands through 2♠ or also others. If only the 2353 hands then you get to reclaim more of the third round bids; on the other hand that seems to me to still make the 2♠ rebid underused. Remember this is the cheapest rebid here. Instead it seems reasonable to also pass, for example, 2362 and 2263 hands with weak diamonds through 2♠. There is really quite a lot of space here after all.

So, for the given hand you might start: 1♠ - 2♦; 2♥ - 2♠; 3♦ - 3♥ and now when Opener supports hearts they have effectively shown their 5530 shape while Responder has shown 2353, or 2362 without great diamonds. The partnership is suddenly in great shape on what was a problem auction. Surely this extra space on auctions where we are still searching for our best fit is worth the cost of starting our spade slam investigations at 3♠?