[Cyberyeti]

 billw55, on 2012-September-04, 06:21, said:

I didn't know about that, what's the story? Why were they banned?

Apartheid presumably, same as every other sport.

[billw55]

 Cyberyeti, on 2012-September-04, 08:15, said:

Apartheid presumably, same as every other sport.

Ah, ok. For some reason I was expecting something more recent.

[mycroft]

I'm guessing the all-sports ZA ban from vaguely 1970-1990 :-)

[ggwhiz]

 billw55, on 2012-September-04, 09:05, said:

Ah, ok. For some reason I was expecting something more recent.

During that ban they brought over a few North American all star squads to tour the country and generally kept their hand in VERY well. If you ever draw a match against them, look out and NEVER stand between the players and a buffet Braii. As long as you can avoid being eaten by something it's an incredibly healthy place and 92 year olds can do serious damage.

[jonottawa]

Austin American-Statesman

[jjbrr]

Quote

Lance Armstrong at Center of Cycling’s Most Sophisticated Doping Program, Officials Charge

The United States Anti-Doping Agency said Wednesday that Lance Armstrong was at the center of the most sophisticated and professional doping program in recent sports history and that it would soon release details of its findings.

The file, as described by the agency, would be the most most extensive, groundbreaking layout of Armstrong’s alleged doping, bolstered by unprecedented interviews, financial statements and laboratory results.

More

[billw55]

Yeah, it's starting to pile up on him. Believers in his innocence are probably dwindling fast.

[PassedOut]

 billw55, on 2012-October-10, 12:14, said:

Yeah, it's starting to pile up on him. Believers in his innocence are probably dwindling fast.

Seems to me his reputation is going to take a hit.

[jjbrr]

It's a little sick how the USADA is approaching this and building up the hype before releasing the whole report.

They're doing their best to get the media on their side and make Lance look as bad as possible, but this story doesn't need the added drama. Stop with the theatrics, USADA, just release the report and let us move on with life.

[cherdano]

 billw55, on 2012-October-10, 12:14, said:

Yeah, it's starting to pile up on him. Believers in his innocence are probably dwindling fast.

Do you think so? The evidence against him has been so overwhelming for years now, believers in his innocence must have had a tunnel vision or conspiracy theory mindset for a while.

[jjbrr]

 cherdano, on 2012-October-10, 15:45, said:

Do you think so? The evidence against him has been so overwhelming for years now, believers in his innocence must have had a tunnel vision or conspiracy theory mindset for a while.

Maybe to a certain extent the evidence was overwhelming; looking back it seems absolutely impossible that he could dominate the sport for as long as he did against competitors, whom we now know also doped, if he was clean. LA was the most tested athlete in the sport and never got caught, and there were only a few willing to testify against him until recently. While I think everyone knew he was doping, there was maybe still some element of uncertainty without any indisputable evidence.

And obviously there will always be a (probably large) group of people who will always believe LA is innocent. The koolaid is strong sometimes.

I have no idea what our legal team is up to regarding the recent developments, so I can't comment or offer any inside info about what SCA is planning to do. I did see our name in the paper though: LA could face perjury charges

[cherdano]

 jjbrr, on 2012-October-11, 16:34, said:

LA was the most tested athlete in the sport and never got caught,

That argument never made any sense. Most cyclists who have admitted or been found guilty of doping have never been tested positive.

Btw, anyone with some common sense should have realized during the Festina scandal that most of the field is doping. When a runner gets caught doping, the other runners are upset that their competitor used doping. In the Tour de France doping scandals, the other cyclists were annoyed that "the journalists are picking on cycling again".

[billw55]

 cherdano, on 2012-October-13, 15:05, said:

When a runner gets caught doping, the other runners are upset that their competitor used doping.

I never thought about it, but now that you mention it, I would think doping would be a problem in distance running as well, at least in the big marathons. What kind of controls do they have? Do many runners get caught? Ditto for triathlons. I guess these sports have a lot less money involved than pro cycling, which probably makes a difference, but surely there are a fair number who try doping.

[Cyberyeti]

 billw55, on 2012-October-15, 06:18, said:

I never thought about it, but now that you mention it, I would think doping would be a problem in distance running as well, at least in the big marathons. What kind of controls do they have? Do many runners get caught? Ditto for triathlons. I guess these sports have a lot less money involved than pro cycling, which probably makes a difference, but surely there are a fair number who try doping.

They have quite sophisticated controls and I think a few have been caught for EPO (which has now taken over from transfusions) or old fashioned transfusion doping, and don't underestimate the money at the top level. An Italian race walker got booted off the Olympic team this year for EPO. A Finn that won medals in the 1980 Olympics used the transfusion method (although it wasn't illegal till 1986).

[Zelandakh]

If you read the USADA report it mentions that EPO microdosing can only be detected for 12 hours even with the best tests that are currently available. Given that the vast majority of testing takes place in the morning and afternoon and further that you need to miss 3 consecutive tests to have any problems and you can see why testing is often seen as something of a joke. The main reason why one sees less effects in distance running than cycling seems to be because those events are dominated by a small group of athletes that lived their lives at altitude and thus have a natural physiological advantage. Also that these events are continuous rather than staged which precludes many of the techniques - it is tough to have a blood infusion during a marathon!

What I find more interesting is when a sportsman does something that is historically unprecedented and noone bats an eyelid, even in events that have ahistory of doping. Lance was one example of this, although to be fair there were question marks over his performances for most of his career. A more recent example would be the cutting of the men's 100m world record by more than 1/10 of a second. The last time this happened it was shown to be through doping; yet I have not heard or read a single suggestion that that might be part of today's training methods.

Of course time will tell. I will not even move onto weightlifting here. Bill's mention of triathlon is also well observed given Lance's current career...

As far as his TdF titles go, the real question is this: Who was the first finisher in each of the Tours from 1999 to 2012 who was not cheating in some way or another? I suspect the answer for at least one of these events is a rider who finished outside of the top 10, possibly even the top 20.

[billw55]

 Zelandakh, on 2012-October-15, 07:52, said:

As far as his TdF titles go, the real question is this: Who was the first finisher in each of the Tours from 1999 to 2012 who was not cheating in some way or another? I suspect the answer for at least one of these events is a rider who finished outside of the top 10, possibly even the top 20.

No way to know but I would not be surprised if there was no non-doper within the top 20. Bottom line, the Tour was running the world's premier doping competition, probably unknowingly at first, but later on ... ?

Which leads to another argument: if everyone was doping, should we consider that this basically levels the field and that therefore the results should stand? Sort of like the corked-bats-versus-spitballs argument in baseball.

[iviehoff]

 jjbrr, on 2012-October-11, 16:34, said:

I did see our name in the paper though: LA could face perjury charges

He also won a libel case once, I think with damages of 600,000 forget $ or £.

[jjbrr]

I figured this is ultimately what we'd choose to do.

Lance asked to repay the $7.5m

[jjbrr]

 iviehoff, on 2012-October-16, 06:15, said:

He also won a libel case once, I think with damages of 600,000 forget $ or £.

ok. the newspaper is thinking about going after that money too.

http://edition.cnn.c...imes/index.html

[Gerben42]

I think they should have a jersey with a red cross on it - doctor's competition.