[Lesh18]

Hi all

1) Is there a difference in tactics between Rubber bridge and Duplicate bridge? If so, where?
2) Which type of scoring is more common and which one would you recommend that a beginner like me should play?
3) Can you actually play a Duplicate bridge style with just four players? (Without several tables playing same hands) ?

Thank you

[JustaDummy]

Excellent question! I have many questions like that too. For example, when One Of The Worthies posts a quiz for us lowly types to ponder (thank you, but I can get hundreds of well-constructed quizzes elsewhere, without having to come here), they quite often state "MPs" or somesuch, as though that would immediately switch us into some particular mode of understanding. Well, I'm sure it would, if I were one of them.

And then, what follows is just incomprehensible unless that mode of understanding is in place. And I just do not know what is important about being in MPs vs not being in MPs.

(And no doubt I'll be assailed from all sides for saying what I just said there. "Why don't you post that question?" I hear them say that kind of thing, again and again. Well, I've looked at the myriad replies to simple questions, that's why.)

But I thank you for giving me the chance to realise that I'm not completely alone here.

I really do believe that most (if not all) of the regular non-newb posters here are actually trying to help. If only they would calm down a bit and not jump all over some of the other posts made by similarly endowed players, as if trying to make a point among THEIR peers instead of trying to help us.

I mean, what chance do I or you or any other real beginner have, in trying to sort out the responses, when the experts just cannot agree among themselves, and attack each other in the process?

[Stephen Tu]

Lesh18, on 2012-April-24, 15:57, said:

1) Is there a difference in tactics between Rubber bridge and Duplicate bridge? If so, where?

Yes. For one thing there are no partial score carryovers in duplicate, so you don't alter what makes game based on what you did on previous deals. In rubber you avoid bidding beyond the partial needed to complete game, unless you think slam is a possibility. Due to rotating partnerships, usually bidding systems are a lot simpler and less sophisticated in rubber as well.

Also, it depends a lot on whether you are playing duplicate scored by matchpoints (MP) or "international match points" (IMPs). The IMP game is much closer to the rubber game in terms of tactics. At IMPs/rubber, you care about the magnitude difference in score between you & other tables, so you care little about small differences like overtricks; you play to set/defeat contracts. At MP, magnitude of difference doesn't matter, it's the *frequency*, so overtricks matter a lot, and you are often trying for the most tricks probable, even if there are safer ways to make the contract that tend to take fewer tricks. Also there are a lot of differences for MP like how aggressive one balances, competing for partscores, and doubling opponent's partscores, for detail read *Matchpoints* by Kit Woolsey. But that's more for when you become intermediate+. As a beginner, just concentrate on making reasonable bids & making your contracts, that will be good enough against your peers. Root's book on play has a good chapter on matchpoint tactics, where one eschews "safety plays" in some situations to take more tricks more often.

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2) Which type of scoring is more common and which one would you recommend that a beginner like me should play?

Depends on area, but duplicate is much more common in most places among serious players (maybe not in UK - heading off London-centric corrections by Vampyr).

I'd recommend duplicate as much as possible, it reduces the aspects of luck, and you can compare your bids and plays with other players holding the same cards to some extent. This is easy online where there are complete records of everything; playing offline you will have to get a group together to discuss hands after the game.

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3) Can you actually play a Duplicate bridge style with just four players? (Without several tables playing same hands) ?

No, it wouldn't be "duplicate" anymore. But you can still use duplicate scoring table for the score for each deal rather than rubber bridge scoring, if you play "Chicago" style. You can also play Chicago with "Russian IMP" scoring, http://www.pagat.com...icago%20-%20rus , where you IMP vs. an expected score based on your side's high-card points. This lessens the effects of luck on who gets more of the high cards.

There are also products like "Doop" that let you play with only 4 players, you play hands that were played in previous tournaments, and compare scores vs. previous results.

[Lesh18]

And if I have 3 more players to play with, but we do not really want to compare our scoring with the computer or previous results, would you recommend that we use a Rubber or Duplicate scoring for a casual play?

[Stephen Tu]

Lesh18, on 2012-April-24, 17:43, said:

And if I have 3 more players to play with, but we do not really want to compare our scoring with the computer or previous results, would you recommend that we use a Rubber or Duplicate scoring for a casual play?

If your group is one of aspiring duplicate players, stick with duplicate scoring, either Chicago or with the "Russian" method, it'll be more familiar than dealing with partials from previous boards.

[Zelandakh]

1. Yes, there are differences. To name one, if we have a part-score of 60 then 1NT is enough for game, therefore 2NT and 3NT responses cannot have their normal meanings.
2. I would strongly recommend that you concentrate on duplicate.
3. I did this quite a lot at university using a simplified version of the Russian scoring approach. In our method you played 4 hands: first nv vs nv, second nv vs vul, third vul vs nv, fourth vul vs vul with dealing side nv on hands 2 and 3. You then play the hand duplicate-style. At the end you sum up your side's hcp, you get +20 points for each hcp difference (or, if you prefer, +40 points for each hcp below 40). My experience of this method was that this is not enough to compensate and that it is still a big advantage to get dealt the points. Therefore I would suggest it is better to use +25 points per hcp difference (+50 points per hcp below 20). A couple of examples:

a. We make 2NT on the nose with 23hcp. We score +120 for the contract and -150 for 23hcp for a total on the hand of -30.
b. We take 9 tricks in 3NT with 26hcp when not vulnerable. We score +400 for the contract and -300 for 26hcp for a total on the hand of +100.

How you use the adjusted score is completely up to you. We scored up as Total Points but there is no reason why you could not convert this to IMPs if you preferred, effectively treating the score adjustment as the score from the other table.

A second way of playing duplicate with 5 players would be for each player to make up a few boards from an expert event, for example from Vugraph, together with the score achieved at the expert table. You then use this as the comparison score for the board. This method is lots of fun but quite time-intensive. It makes a nice change if each player brings, say, 4 boards though. That would mean each player gets to play 16 pre-dealt hands together with a sit-out. You can always continue with normal Chicago, with or without score adjustment, if you still have time afterwards.

[Vampyr]

Lesh18, on 2012-April-24, 17:43, said:

And if I have 3 more players to play with, but we do not really want to compare our scoring with the computer or previous results, would you recommend that we use a Rubber or Duplicate scoring for a casual play?

If you have 2 tables, teams-of-four is the most fun. You compare your results with your teammates (sitting in the opposite direction at the other table), and can score in IMPs or total points. You can rotate teammates after each match of x number of boards.

Normal scoring for teams-of-four is duplicate-style. It's easiest to use physical boards or wallets to determine dealer and vulnerability (and of course to transfer the cards from one table to the other); if you don't have any available you can just make up 8 boards out of cardboard.

[Cthulhu D]

Lesh18, on 2012-April-24, 15:57, said:

1) Is there a difference in tactics between Rubber bridge and Duplicate bridge? If so, where?
2) Which type of scoring is more common and which one would you recommend that a beginner like me should play?
3) Can you actually play a Duplicate bridge style with just four players? (Without several tables playing same hands) ?

1) There are two types of duplicate scoring, IMPs and Matchpoints (typically called MPs). IMPs and rubber bridge have much in common - except for the carry forward of partscores. IMPs essentially a succession of rubber bridge games where you abandon the rubber after the first hand every time, and a similar strategy should be employed. MPs is a different animal to a degree.

2) It doesn't matter which you play. Matchpoints is likely to be more common in pairs events. IMPs dominates teams.

3) Yes. When playing 4 handed with friends, we use the below:

http://www.compensat.../score-calc.php

This gives an 'IMP' feel to your game, and is easy to use. Plug in the contract you bid, the number of tricks you made, and your best trump fit + HCP total and it spits back an IMP result. It's flawed, but reasonable enough for a fun game. It's better than chicago imho.

If you want instant matchpoint games:

http://www.rpbridge.net/rpim.htm has several with analysis. You need 4 decks of cards to make this work with 4 friends.

[Trumpace]

JustaDummy, on 2012-April-24, 16:45, said:

Excellent question! I have many questions like that too. For example, when One Of The Worthies posts a quiz for us lowly types to ponder (thank you, but I can get hundreds of well-constructed quizzes elsewhere, without having to come here), they quite often state "MPs" or somesuch, as though that would immediately switch us into some particular mode of understanding. Well, I'm sure it would, if I were one of them.

And then, what follows is just incomprehensible unless that mode of understanding is in place. And I just do not know what is important about being in MPs vs not being in MPs.

(And no doubt I'll be assailed from all sides for saying what I just said there. "Why don't you post that question?" I hear them say that kind of thing, again and again. Well, I've looked at the myriad replies to simple questions, that's why.)

But I thank you for giving me the chance to realise that I'm not completely alone here.

I really do believe that most (if not all) of the regular non-newb posters here are actually trying to help. If only they would calm down a bit and not jump all over some of the other posts made by similarly endowed players, as if trying to make a point among THEIR peers instead of trying to help us.

I mean, what chance do I or you or any other real beginner have, in trying to sort out the responses, when the experts just cannot agree among themselves, and attack each other in the process?

Sorry for the off-topic post, but that is what happens when you reply to an off-topic post.

JustADummy, your attitude amazes me.

People are willing to spend time and effort to post instructive content _and_ followup to any questions you might have, for free!, and here you are, taking their efforts for granted.

The point about well constructed quizzes: Do you really think that having a person there to answer your queries is the same as reading a book?

If you see differing opinions posted in a thread, all you have to do is say you are a N/B and ask if there was a resolution/agreement, ask people to elaborate etc. Even experts make mistakes, and by nature, many bridge situations don't have a single right answer. As for people attacking each other, that is a rare occurrence, and usually involves the same set of people. That is a given in any internet forum, and it would be quite silly if that is the reason a N/B chooses not to participate. (Frankly, I have been surprised that the personal attacks are so few on BBF!)

If you want to learn, expect to put in some work yourself. Don't expect to be handed everything on a platter, especially when people are doing this voluntarily.

Asking questions(not just starting new threads, but posting in existing ones) is a great way to get involved and show that you are interested in learning (and, that way, you will learn more than passive lurking).

If the N/B forum does not flourish, I would predict it would be because there aren't enough N/B willing to ask questions, rather than experts bickering among themselves.

btw, I really don't want to discuss this any further, so please pardon me if I don't respond to a reply/PM.

[Quantumcat]

You are better off using duplicate scoring. There are no high-level rubber games (well maybe you can find some in New York or London, but it'll be world-class players taking your money for the pleasure of sitting down at a table with them), so there's not much point learning how to play rubber well. Most of the skills you learn won't be transferrable and you might end up with bad habits for duplicate (where you can find a million tournaments, for any level of skill). Of course if you regularly just play with four people and never go to a club, or to any small congresses, you may as well play rubber. But as soon as you can get eight people you can have a teams game. With more, you can play an American Whist movement and still get to play teams.