[zg1984]

In some places on the internet I see that counting distribution points should only be done after you and your partner establish a suit.
In other places I see that you should always count distribution points, except in NT.

Can anyone explain why the differing explanations?

Thanks

[Trinidad]

There are different types of distribution points. Some of them will always be good and others will only work when there is a fit. The following two hands might illustrate this point.
A

---

A nice hand with 22 HCP and no distribution points. You have 7 tricks, even if partner is broke, as long as you can decide that you ar eplaying in NT.

B

---

The same 22 HCP, but a sure 13 tricks in no trump. Of course, you should be counting distribution points.

Now, this example was obviously extreme, but it proves the point.

My advice is to count 1 distribution point for each card beyond the fourth one in a suit. You can use these points for bidding suits, but also for bidding NT. However, you should be prepared to get more pessimistic and "let go of those points" later in the bidding when partner doesn't have a fit for you suit, particularly when the suit has "soft honors": queens, jacks and tens, rather than aces.

When you have found a fit, distribution points count their full value. Now you change your way to count distribution points:
- If you are the hand with the long trumps, you keep counting length points, like above.
- If you are the hand with the short trumps, you do not count length points, but instead you count points for shortness, as follows:
   If you have three card support, count 3 for a void, 2 for a singleton and 1 for a doubleton.
   If you have four card support or more, count 5 for a void, 3 for a singleton and 1 for a doubleton.

Rik

[32519]

zg1984, on 2012-January-07, 08:38, said:

In some places on the internet I see that counting distribution points should only be done after you and your partner establish a suit.
In other places I see that you should always count distribution points, except in NT.

Can anyone explain why the differing explanations?

Thanks

This is an interesting question which is often discussed. I don’t believe that we will ever reach consensus as to what is “right” and what is “wrong.” In the end it will probably come down to partnership agreement and partnership bidding style.

Marty Bergen suggested both the Rule of 20 http://www.bridgehan.../Rule_of_20.htm and the Rule of 15 http://www.bridgehan.../Rule_of_15.htm in deciding whether to open the bidding or not.

Opening the bidding with hands meeting the Rule of 20 are often overbid. Why? How is partner supposed to know that your opening bid was made using the Rule of 20 and not according to your normal system agreements? Here is a link to an article which appeared in July 2011 in the BBO News having a look at but one example of these hands which are so easily overbid http://webutil.bridg...etch.php?id=722
I have a fistful of similar examples.

[jdeegan]

Let me give you the old-fashioned view. Distribution "points" are plastic. "Points", in general, are useful mainly in telling you in what sort of realm you live, and what level of aspirations you strive for - part score, game or slam.
The late Charles Goren, an admired friend, advised an initial count of one point for a doubleton, two points for a singleton, and three points for a void. Once a good trump fit is established, then singletons are worth three, and voids worth five. I still find that an excellent point of departure.
So, what do you do when you have honor cards in your short suits? Modern theorists demonstrate with clarity that such things are BAD, esp. in contested auctions. It's not so much that you will get a trick with your card, but that the opps are bidding in spite of lacking it.
If you are just getting into the game, I wish you luck.

[zg1984]

Thank you everyone.
With my wife we will count length from the start.
With the codgers at the rec center I will play their way, because is easier than 're learning' them.

Glenn

[Vampyr]

32519, on 2012-January-08, 02:29, said:

Opening the bidding with hands meeting the Rule of 20 are often overbid. Why? How is partner supposed to know that your opening bid was made using the Rule of 20 and not according to your normal system agreements?

Why are you assuming that the Rule of 20 (or the Rule of 19!) is not the normal system agreement? I realise that people who play strong 2/1s have to keep their openings pretty sound, but in any case if playing IMPs I would rather be in game on your example hand than not.

[whereagles]

In some approaches distribution points are counted from the beginning. They help opener to decide his opening and 1st rebid. Responder in principle should not count them. In these approaches when a fit is found, both opener and responder count "support points" to decide to what level to support.

Support points are like distribution points, with a twist or two. The tally is summing up

# hcps
+1 for doubleton
+3 for singleton
+5 for void
+1 for each card in a long suit above the 5th (starts at 6th card thus)
+2 if the fit is 9+ cards

If no fit is found, all this cancels and you just add up hcps.

[Zelandakh]

You should always consider distribution, even in NT. For example, when thinking about opening 1NT you can consider a 5 card suit as worh an extra 1/2 hcp; a 6 card suit is worth at least an extra 1 hcp. In conjunction with good honour concentration or fillers this will often mean it is a good idea to count the hand as 1 hcp more than reality. In contrast a 4333 hand with lots of unsupported quacks such as QJxx/QJx/QJx/QJx is worse than its actual hcp value. However, if you make reverse then you are already showing a 5 card suit so you cannot really count that as an extra value. This goes back to how you define your base strength for bids.

During the auction you should consider your hand in the context of partner's bidding. If you have shortage in partner's suits then the hand looks like a misfit and you should like your hand less than if you hold a partial fit for partner's suits. One way to simulate this that is good for beginners is to add 1 hcp for the difference in length between your shortest suit and the suit partner has bid where you hold the most length. Once you have a guranteed 8 card fit then you can switch to 5/3/1 points or whichever other system (LTC, etc) you have agreed with partner for purposes of playing in that suit. But you also need to adjust here - if partner has shown 6 hearts and 4-5 clubs and you hold 2 hearts and a club singleton then the singleton is probably worth slightly less than 3 hcp due to your limited ruffing potential. If partner has shown 5 hearts and a singleton club, and you also hold 5 hearts and a singleton club, then the singleton is worth close to nothing since partner already counted it.

Whatever system you use for distribution you will probably find you rely on it less and less as you gather experience with the game. Distribution becomes one of many plus-minus factors you consider when evaluating a hand. Most likely you will eventually have some method which gives you a baseline and then adjust according to whether the hand in the context of the current auction is better or worse than a typical hand of that type. This takes some experience. While gathering that experience it is good to have some sort of guideline - the method suggested above is one possibility for this.