[Flem72]

RHO opens 1(15-17)NT, LHO raises to 3.

You hold

K965
KJx
Qxx
QTx

and lead the 4th best S; dummy looks like

AJ7
Qxx
Jxxx
xxx.

Dummy plays low, partner plays 8 and Declarer wins in hand with ST.
Declarer plays A & K of D, partner discarding S3 on the K.
Declarer leads low D, partner discarding S2.

Our agreements are: attitude to our lead or discard, present count to declarer lead. No version of Smith. What do partner's plays tell you if anything?

EDIT: OK, the reason I asked in the first place: Partner held Q832 in spades. I can understand playing the 8 first, as I might have led from T9xx (but: can't find another, better lead?). He then claimed that playing 3 then 2 of S showed the Q as, playing attitude discards, 2 then 3 would've denied the Q.

Does this make sense within the agreement that our discards are attitude in our suits, count in theirs? So far, everyone I've asked has said that partner is counting out spades for me....

[mikeh]

Well, off topic, but we know declarer isn't very good. He has AK10xx in diamonds opposite Qxx and played the AK? Why couldn't it be us with the stiff small diamond?

Anyway, back to the problem at hand.

Partner doesn't like spades, yet played hi-low in the suit. Assuming an intelligent partner, he is trying to help us out as much as he can.

Partner has between 4 and 6 hcp. I expect he has the heart Ace. I would place him as something like 832 Axxxx x Jxxx, tho he needn't hold the club J.

Declarer will hold Q10x xx AK10xx AKx or equivalent.

I will in due course lead the heart K and then the J.

[wank]

obviously k>j of hearts is inferior to jack first, in case declarer has qxx 10xx Akxxx AK

[ArtK78]

Mike: The Qxx of diamonds is in the opening leader's hand. Declarer held AKTxx opposite Jxxx of diamonds.

Yes - the ♥J is the better play if partner has A98x of hearts. However, if he has that holding, then declarer can cover the ♥J and then duck the ♥9 return, limiting us to 3 heart tricks and one diamond, which does not beat 3NT.

So, assuming that we are playing IMPs, the ♥K is best, as it prevents partner from going wrong with AT9x(x) if declarer doesn't cover the ♥J.

[gnasher]

The jack is better, because when declarer has 10xx or 108x it gives him a guess. Why would partner play the ace from A109x?

[gszes]

Flem72, on 2011-December-20, 12:57, said:

RHO opens 1(15-17)NT, LHO raises to 3.

You hold

K965
KJx
Qxx
QTx

and lead the 4th best S; dummy looks like

AJ7
Qxx
Jxxx
xxx.

Dummy plays low, partner plays 8 and Declarer wins in hand with ST.
Declarer plays A & K of D, partner discarding S3 on the K.
Declarer leads low D, partner discarding S2.

Our agreements are: attitude to our lead or discard, present count to declarer lead. No version of Smith. What do partner's plays tell you if anything?

The 8 was forced and the plays of the 3/2 were trying to tell u that p prefers hearts to clubs yet
probably has something in clubs because a small club pitch would tell the story better. If p played the
2/3 the reverse would have been true w/o a small heart pitch.

P can count 3 spades 4 dia and one heart if we return the heart J so p should never make the mistake
of rising with the A and hoping we have something like AQT of clubs because it is totally safe to
duck and see what happens. If declarer wins the heart and continues hearts then p can rise with the
A and try the desparation club J return.

For all of you out there paying attention please please do not raise a 15 17 1n to 3n with that rag
of a dummy which in all fairness should probably pass 1n since it needs almost a miracle in openers
hand to make 3n (at imps vul we can make a case for a 2n invite)

[Flem72]

gszes, on 2011-December-20, 17:42, said:

For all of you out there paying attention please please do not raise a 15 17 1n to 3n with that rag
of a dummy which in all fairness should probably pass 1n since it needs almost a miracle in openers
hand to make 3n (at imps vul we can make a case for a 2n invite)

They were behind 17 at halftime and this was their first attempt at a catch up board.

[bluecalm]

It seems that with A or K of clubs he should be obliged to signal it. If he couldn't by dropping a club then it would be low/high in spades. That puts declarer with AK♦ AK♣ and Q♠ making our J♥ play automatic.
The problem is: what should partner do, if he doesn't hold either ♣ or ♥ honor. We know that he has to have one of them on this hand but as general rule he should always signal clubs honestly and hearts sometimes if there is nothing else to do (as with xxx in dummy clubs are more attractive suit to open so information about honor there is vital).
For example with:
xxxx Jxxx x Kxxx he would play low/high in spades but with: xxxx Jxxx x Jxxx he would play high-low.
I think such agreement is both good and clear (always signal honestly values in most important suit, leaving any doubts for less important suits).

[jogs]

---

It really gets confusing without a diagram.

[Flem72]

jogs, on 2011-December-21, 14:51, said:

It really gets confusing without a diagram.

Can see that: Spades in dummy are AJ7. But, point taken, I need to learn how to do that stuff....

[Flem72]

OK, the reason I asked in the first place: Partner held Q832 in spades. I can understand playing the 8 first, as I might have led from T9xx (but: can't find another, better lead?). He then claimed that playing 3 then 2 of S showed the Q as, playing attitude discards, 2 then 3 would've denied the Q.

Does this make sense within the agreement that our discards are attitude in our suits, count in theirs? So far, everyone I've asked has said that partner is counting out spades for me....

[gszes]

defense is hard with T9xx I would lead the T mainly because we usually need to
quickly form a picture of plausible declarer hands in order to know how to
defend and signal (GOALS). On rare occassion leading the T will cost a trick but on
most other occassions it will help partnership in some way with our GOALS.

the lead of the T here would go a long way to helping us define openers hand. We lead
4th best normally in order to help indicate where we have some "stuff" and this helps
p with hand evaluation. Leading 4th best from essentially nothing defeats that purpose.

Note how everyone is assuming p does not have the Q and is explaining the carding
based on that assumption. I assume everyone else was thinking the spade T would be
automatic from T9xx. I hope that is the case here.

We normally lead low from JTxx because there is a high degree of probabilty we can
establish a trick via power with T9xx those odds take a nosedive and leading the T
will generally work better for overall hand evaluation.

[kayin801]

Even if partner has the spade Q, if he really wanted a second spade he couldn't find another discard to make first? Partner is looking for a switch but doesn't want to give away the show in another suit. Maybe this is too deep but I'd like for 3-2 to ask for hearts and 2-3 to ask for clubs. If he had no pressing switch he could find an outside pitch first.

Edit: I think this is essentially what mike said, upon further review, though I allowed for partner to have the spade Q too.

[FrancesHinden]

The reason 'everyone' is assuming that partner does not have the SQ is because he is discarding spades. All other things being equal, you don't discard in the suit you want partner to continue.

[bluecalm]

Quote

OK, the reason I asked in the first place: Partner held Q832 in spades. I can understand playing the 8 first, as I might have led from T9xx

KTxx/K9xx = 2 possibilities. T9 = one possibility.
Not only that, but T9 not always leads low. T97x for example would lead high.
Sounds like your partner played wrong card at trick 1 and was in tough spot after that with: Q8xx Txxx x K9xx or something with only awkward discards to choose from.
From your point of view it's much more likely that he couldn't afford either ♥ nor ♣ discard and was trying to show his ♥ values using high/low in spades.

[FrancesHinden]

bluecalm, on 2011-December-22, 10:33, said:

KTxx/K9xx = 2 possibilities. T9 = one possibility.
Not only that, but T9 not always leads low. T97x for example would lead high.
Sounds like your partner played wrong card at trick 1 and was in tough spot after that with: Q8xx Txxx x K9xx or something with only awkward discards to choose from.
From your point of view it's much more likely that he couldn't afford either ♥ nor ♣ discard and was trying to show his ♥ values using high/low in spades.

Yes, but playing the 8 never costs, declarer has a double stop anyway if partner has K10xx or K9xx; if partner has 109xx playing the Q gives him 3 tricks.
The problem came later.

[gnasher]

Partner's play of ♠8 seems normal to me. It never costs a trick, and sometimes gains. There are times when it's right to play the queen from this holding - eg if he wants to control when declarer wins his second trick in the suit - but this doesn't appear to be one of them.

The rest of partner's play doesn't seem at all normal. Considering the spade suit in isolation, if partner discards down to a singleton queen, it allows declarer to duck the second spade, so that we can't set up the suit. Alternatively, he might win the second spade and then play to keep West off lead, holding us to no spade tricks. Hence it's natural for East to keep at least one of his small spades; when he throws both of them, it's reasonable to assume that he didn't start with Qxxx.

On the actual deal, it's possible that we would have survived East's strange defence if we'd know what he had. But we would also have survived if he'd thrown a discouraging club followed by a discouraging heart.

[bluecalm]

Quote

Yes, but playing the 8 never costs, declarer has a double stop anyway if partner has K10xx or K9xx; if partner has 109xx playing the Q gives him 3 tricks.

Yes, right.

Quote

artner's play of ♠8 seems normal to me. It never costs a trick, and sometimes gains. There are times when it's right to play the queen from this holding - eg if he wants to control when declarer wins his second trick in the suit - but this doesn't appear to be one of them.

I dunno. If I held Q8xx Txxx x KXxx or similar hand which makes ♥ and ♣ discards uncomfortable my instinct would be to take Qs and play club back. Anyway discarding down to stiff Q♠ looks really bad regardless.

[Flem72]

bluecalm, on 2011-December-23, 16:03, said:

I dunno. If I held Q8xx Txxx x KXxx or similar hand which makes ♥ and ♣ discards uncomfortable my instinct would be to take Qs and play club back. Anyway discarding down to stiff Q♠ looks really bad regardless.

Stripping to the Q is bad only if I do not pick up the alleged signal in spades. Partner is never getting in, unless for some reason he can take the 3rd club.

After a lot of asking around, I conclude that partner is alone in this signalling "method."