[han]

chalks, on 2011-December-04, 02:35, said:

example hands...

I know this is not nice to hear but your basic bidding knowledge needs to improve much more before you should worry about conventions.

Quote

Essentially, I think my biggest problems are as responder with a strong hand, or as opener with a very strong hand. I don't know how to show voids/singletons . . . .

No, your biggest problem is that you don't know what basic auctions like 1S - 1NT - 2S show. That's what you'll need to learn first.

[S2000magic]

Antrax, on 2011-December-05, 00:15, said:

I'm not sure jumping twice is the most efficient use of bids. One wonders what you would do with the hand you showed if one of the spades was a club.

I'd bid it the same way.

Antrax, on 2011-December-05, 00:15, said:

Since, as you said, responder would not raise diamonds if he had a major to show, surely 3♥ is not just "a biddable suit".

Good point.

[Antrax]

S2000magic, on 2011-December-05, 06:56, said:

I'd bid it the same way.

So what happens if the auction goes 1♣-1♥; 2♠-3♠ ? Do you play in the 4-3 fit? Is 4♥ here retroactively agreeing hearts, a cue bid, last train?

[gwnn]

Bidding around your shortness is a very old-fashioned idea, I would very much advise against learning it. Like Antrax very well observes, it causes much confusion and sorrow in many sequences. Splinters are not that complicated.

[S2000magic]

Antrax, on 2011-December-05, 07:19, said:

So what happens if the auction goes 1♣-1♥; 2♠-3♠ ? Do you play in the 4-3 fit? Is 4♥ here retroactively agreeing hearts . . .?

Yes.

[Gerben42]

Conventions required to win a 299er game:

NONE

I wish bridge teachers would point this out some more.

[Vampyr]

Gerben42, on 2011-December-05, 09:45, said:

Conventions required to win a 299er game:

NONE

I agree with you 99%. I don't think that the modern game can sensibly be played without the takeout double.

Quote

I wish bridge teachers would point this out some more.

I imagine it's not easy. The students want to learn conventions. Having the right approach but no students doesn't do the bridge teacher or the would-be learners any good.

[helene_t]

chalks, on 2011-December-04, 02:35, said:

I'm sitting south:

---

Does north's 2h bid show 5h? I thought it only promised 4.

It shows 5.

A good way to realize this is to ask yourself the question if you can imagine a hand with only four hearts which would bid 2♥ here. I bet you can't. Any hand with four hearts would have either three spades (in which case a spade raise is obviously better) or a 4-card minor (which you would bid instead of hearts because in general you bid 4-cards up the line). So even if it was permissible to bid a 4-card suit at the 2-level in response to an overcall, this particular bid would still promise 5. A 2♥ response to a 1♠ opening shows 5 for the same reason.

Another way of realizing this is to ask yourself it would be a practical agreement to allow this 2♥ bid on a 4-card suit. Surely it would not. With 3-card support for hearts, opener should raise because whenever advancer actually does have five hearts, raising with 3-card support is superior to any other bid. This means that if 2♥ could be a 4-card suit, you would frequently end up in 3♥ in a 4-3 fit. Now a 4-3 fit is not so bad at the 2-level and that is part of the reason why we often allow 4-card suits to be introduced at the 1-level. But not so often at the 2-level.

Actually I like teaching the rule to beginners that the first natural suit bid you make shows 5 (unless partner has shown length in that suit already). Yes, there are exceptions. The 1♥ and 1♠ responses to a 1♦ opening is an exception in almost all systems and most systems have a handful of other exceptions. In standard american, you can also bid 4-card suits when you
- open 1♣ or 1♦
- respond at the 1-level
- respond 2♣ to a major suit opening and 2♦ to a 1♠ opening
- make a freebid of 1♥ or 1♠ after RHO overcalls 1♦.

If you learn it that way, you don't have to ask yourself whether a bid shows 5 or 4 because unless it is on the short list of exceptions (or you have shown another suit first) then you know the answer. It shows 5. For example:

(1♣)-dbl-(pass)-1♥
(pass)-1♠*

2♣-(pass)-2♦-(pass)
2♠*

2♣-(pass)-2♠*

How many spades do each of these * bids show? They are not on the short list of exceptions and they are indeed the first natural bid made by that player (a 2♣ opening is not natural in standard american). So you know the answer. They all show five spades. You don't have to learn these situations specifically.

And your 1♠ overcall shows five as well. Because that is not on the short list of exceptions, either.

[chalks]

han, on 2011-December-05, 04:45, said:

I know this is not nice to hear but your basic bidding knowledge needs to improve much more before you should worry about conventions.

It's exactly what I wanted to hear, and is precisely the reason I'm asking for help. Any resources you could suggest would be greatly appreciated.

gwnn, on 2011-December-05, 07:35, said:

Bidding around your shortness is a very old-fashioned idea, I would very much advise against learning it. Like Antrax very well observes, it causes much confusion and sorrow in many sequences. Splinters are not that complicated.

I love the idea of splinters, and they are high on my list of "things to learn once I get a more solid grounding in bidding"

Gerben42, on 2011-December-05, 09:45, said:

Conventions required to win a 299er game:

NONE

I've been noticing that some of the better players I've come across on BBO have *just* SAYC listed in their profile (or nothing at all). I think my regular partner and I may start over from scratch playing no conventions until we find ourselves really wanting/needing one.



Thanks for the advice everyone, it has been extremely helpful. Thanks in part to this thread, I won a tourney the other day! Only 14 players or so, but still... I was excited.

[Free]

Conventions aren't always a cure, sometimes they're a curse! From the hands you posted, it seems that you should first work on your basic bidding, before even considering anything else.

My advice to beginners about bidding is the following:
- first learn your basic system. Usually it uses HCP ranges 0-5, 6-9, 10-11, 12-14, 15-17, 18-19, 20-21, 22-23 and 24+. After NT openings you have different HCP ranges: 0-7, 8-9 and 10+.
- now learn it without HCP but with terms "weak", "invitational", "less than invitational", "game forcing", "slam try",... This basically means: work on your hand evaluation, sometimes a 9-pointer can be upgraded to invitational, sometimes a 10-count is downgraded,...
- in the mean time, learn about competitive bidding. While it's in no way a bible, the book "Partnership bidding at bridge" by Robson-Segal is a really good start! You can find it online in PDF format for free (but be careful, there are a lot of typos in there).

With this in your partnership's arsenal, you'll be able to do very well. Only extreme hands will prove difficult, and only now conventions could be considered.

But bidding isn't everything. Even if you've completed the 3 steps described above, your efforts should now go to advanced declarer play and defense. When you have a good understanding about all this, you won't need conventions to do well on 95% of the hands (that's only 1 problem board every 3 sessions!).

[vuroth]

A partner who counts and has sensible judgement and is pleasant is worth a thousand conventions at this point.

Honestly, I've made the most leaps forward in my game when I could TRUST partner's unexpected lead/bid/discard/signal, and it either led me to the right play, or should have.

Bridge is about the process of deduction, not the process of memorization.

All that said, get the system down first. You can't make sense of what's going on if you don't understand the language.

[S2000magic]

vuroth, on 2011-December-07, 14:44, said:

All that said, get the system down first. You can't make sense of what's going on if you don't understand the language.

Amen!

I have an occasional partner now - a beginner - who wants to play a weak NT: 12 - 14 HCP. (Good! I like weak notrumps.)

On one hand with 13 HCP he opened 1NT. It had an 8-card diamond suit.

On another hand I opened 1♣ and he responded 1NT. You guessed it: 12 - 14 HCP.

vuroth, on 2011-December-07, 14:44, said:

Honestly, I've made the most leaps forward in my game when I could TRUST partner's unexpected lead/bid/discard/signal, and it either led me to the right play, or should have.

Amen!²

I started playing with another partner (like me: experienced but rusty) last Saturday. Early in the match we had this bidding sequence:

1NT - 2♦
2♥ - 4NT
6NT - Pass

We'd discussed transfers, and Gerber over notrumps, but not this specific sequence; I trusted that he had a slam invitation with a 5-card heart suit, and he did. Making 6.

In our second match we had this sequence:

1NT - (Pass) - 2♦ - (2♠)
Dbl - (Pass) - Pass - (Pass)

Making 4.

When we discussed it later he said that if he'd had 2 minutes to think about it he'd have come to the conclusion that my double was coöperative, and that he should have pulled it with:

♠ 4
♥ 10 9 7 6 2
♦ Q 6 3
♣ J 10 8 5

What I know is that this is now a situation about which he's not going to have to think, and the next time it arises he'll make the right decision.

All of this is worth a lot more matchpoints than agreeing to play, say, support doubles.

[Zelandakh]

You might find it helpful to either write down some rules for rebids or perhaps to write out some "ladders" for different hand types, or a combination of the two. For example a balanced ladder might look like

12-14 open 1 of a suit, rebid NT
15-17 open 1NT
18-19 open 1 of a suit, jump rebid NT
20-22 open 2NT
23-24 open 2C, rebid NT
25-27 open 2C, jump rebid NT

or for a spade single suiter (Hand 1)

10-15 open 1S, rebid spades
16-18 open 1S, jump rebid in spades
19-21 open 1S, double jump rebid of 4S (or find any other forcing bid)
22+ open 2C, rebid spades

or rules-based: opener's rebid after a 1 of suit response
balanced rebids:-
1NT = 12-14 balanced
2NT = 18-19 balanced

weak unbalanced rebids:-
1 of a new suit = 4+ card suit, unbalanced, <GF strength
2 of a new (lower-ranking) suit = 4+ card suit, unbalanced, <GF strength
2 of original suit = 5+ card suit, 10-15 hcp

strong unbalanced rebids:-
2 of a new (higher-ranking) suit = 4+ card suit, unbalanced, 16+ hcp
3 of a new (lower-ranking) suit = (3)4+ card suit, unbalanced, GF
3 of original suit = 6+ card suit, 16-18 hcp

This kind of exercise not only helps you to understand what the different bids mean but also show the pattern and hence why. This is the first step to understanding the way bidding systems work. Until you have this basic understanding it is generally fruitless to play anything but the most basic conventions.

Competitive bidding is more difficult to pin down this way but it still works. For example a balanced ladder sitting directly after they open 1 of a suit might be

0-14 pass
15-18 1NT
19-21 X, rebid NT
22-23 X, jump rebid NT
24+ X, rebid 3NT (or rebid the opps' suit)

Similarly for a spade 1-suiter in second seat after they open 1 of a suit

0-4 pass
5-10 jump overcall (2S)
11-13 overcall 1S, make a minimum rebid or pass
14-16 overcall 1S, make a strong rebid if partner bids constructively
17-20 X, then bid spades
21-23 X, then jump rebid spades
24+ X, then bid the opps' suit, then bid spades

Make a general rule about doubles with a regular partner and build up exceptions as they appear to be sensible. For example "any double below 3NT is for takeout; doubles of 4C and above show values or an interest in penalising". Exceptions: "if we have shown a fit then subsequent doubles are penalty", "if we preempted then subsequent doubles are penalty", "if we tried to penalise them previously then all doubles are penalty", etc.

In responding to a 1NT overcall you can use your normal 1NT response scheme. When responding to a one level overcall one easy solution that works for beginners is to remove a king from your hand and bid as over an opening except that bidding 2 of a new suit is not stronger than 1 of a new suit (ie something like 9+ and forcing).

Free's advice is good although the ranges I learned were a little different: as Opener 0-11, 12-15, 16-18, 19-21, 22+ and as Responder: 0-5, 6-9, 10-12, 13-15, 16+. As he points out the important ranges change a little depending on what partner has shown. Super-weak, weak, invitational, game, slam is arguably the best way to think of the ranges which can then adjust naturally to different situations.

Unlike him I would not recommend Robson and Segal at this stage; it is probably just too advanced as it assumes quite alot of general bridge knowledge. Like him I would suggest concentrating alot on learning the basics of card play once you have the bidding basics down pat. You can add the odd convention (such as splinters or new minor forcing) but keep that to a minimum for a little while. At some point down the line you will naturally find that your card play has reached the point where you are making most of the contracts you should and beating some contracts that you perhaps should not, and that you are finding certain hand types consistently a little troublesome to bid even though you understand the overall bidding system.

This is the time to start considering a convention to cover the problem. Always remember though, that for every convention you add you lose something too. So understand how to bid the hands that you used to bid via the conventional call and also what the overall pros and cons are. Also, never use a convention just because you have it available - it may feel great to use your "special" bid but overusing conventions is worse than not having any at all. Usually, if you can bid a hand without using the convention it is better - the convention is there to handle specific hands which are otherwise awkward.

Anyway, good luck with your bridge development. These forums are an excellent resource when you come across hands or bids that you are unsure about. If you post here in the B/I forum there will almost certainly be posters willing to help you out and answer your questions. Try to limit threads to a single hand though as it is confusing to discuss multiple hands at once.

[P_Marlowe]

Focus on game bidding.

Good slam bidding starts with having a firm grip on bidding games, e.g. knowing,
when one is in a game forcing sequence.

Learn to bid with confidence. Good game bidding is not ruled by fear of going down,
but by the hope of making it.

Learn how to deal with interference. The standard weapon to deal with interference is
the T/O double, and to bid with confidence.
You also need to learn, that it is usually better to take the money instead of chasing
dreams, if they interfere heavily give up on slam.

Books on cmpetive auctions are hard to find - I like "Competitive Bidding in the 21st
Century" by Marshall Miles.
"Partnership Bidding" from Robson / Seagal is ok, but I prefer Miles.

I hav spoken with others, and they disagreed, so ..., take your bet.

With kind regards
Marlowe