[TWO4BRIDGE]

I know I'm going to be in big trouble, but South has a much better rebid -- a 3D!-jump SPLINTER for ♣ ( showing 4+cards ) :

South North
1S - 2C! ( Edit: I took this as GF when OP said "bascic 2/1" )
3D! ( Edit: Thus, 2D would be forcing so, 3D! = "jump-over-a-force" = splinter for last bid suit )
Now North may not be so anxious to rebid 3NT.... and start cue-bidding.

And when a minor (m) suit is agreed at the 3-level, then 4m! is Minorwood ( RKC )... 4C! for this auction.
But when the minor is first agreed at the 4-level, then Kickback ( 4m+1 ) is RKC.....
that is if you play those conventions for the minors.

This post has been edited by TWO4BRIDGE: 2011-September-03, 07:43

[aguahombre]

No question that if you splinter, 3D is the splinter..not 4. It is just that the hand is too good and the concentration is absolute; plus the fifth club. Having the splinter available is different from using it on this hand.

The fact that you play Minorwood or kickback or whatever is not relevent. Removing 3NT to 4m is one of those after bidding 3C...it just doesn't happen to be what to do on this hand with the doublton heart.

[ggwhiz]

Back away from the table slowly and keep your hands in sight. Do not touch the G**** unless it's a jump.

[jillybean]

Nothing in this game is safe to assume, I was talking to one of the better, older players about these auctions.

What is 1♠:2♣ 3♣ 3N:4♣ ? let's play in 4S or 5/6C , asks for attitutude, cue towards 6C
What is 1♠:2♣ 3♣ 3N:5♣ ? to play (I have never heard of super gerber)
How do you ask for aces ? 4♣, demand a cue followed by 4N

When I asked the Junior champ 4♣ is cue, 5♣ is super gerber.

I will be talking with my regular partners about G***** and Super G*****

[Free]

1NT-4♣ and 2NT-4♣ are the only possible Gerber auctions, all the rest is NOT Gerber (even if it asks Aces). Here it just sets trumps and wants you to cuebid. If someone bids 4NT it will be Ace asking (RKC if you want). So while 4♣ is indeed the good way to start, it's just a temporizing bid and requires a 4NT follow up to actually ask for Aces.

This is ofcourse without special agreements, you can also play minorwood, kickback RKC, turbo, kickback turbo,...

[aguahombre]

When a Minor is established as trump, and something slammish is begun (cues, minorwood, kickback, whatever), one useful byproduct is to be able to stop in 4NT if things are not working out for slam. Throwing in 4NT to ask for Aces after cues mucks that up.

[ggwhiz]

Years ago my teammates had a similar type auction that eventually went

4♣ Gerber intended
4nt Blackwood
5♣ more gerber, yeah we have them all
5♠ Sign off, no aces over there
7nt, YEAH we have all of them too.

Made it on 2 finesses and I still kid them about inventing checkback blackwood.

[vuroth]

Free, on 2011-September-05, 09:54, said:

1NT-4♣ and 2NT-4♣ are the only possible Gerber auctions, all the rest is NOT Gerber (even if it asks Aces).

Pickup, I think

1♦ 1♥
2NT 4♣

would be taken as G.

If opener had started with 1♣, it probably wouldn't be.

[VM1973]

vuroth, on 2011-September-06, 15:20, said:

Pickup, I think

1♦ 1♥
2NT 4♣

would be taken as G.

If opener had started with 1♣, it probably wouldn't be.

Agreed. Any time 4NT would be quantitative, 4♣ is Gerber.

[mycroft]

First statement about Gerber (apart from "it's a baby food, not a convention" - but that's a belief, not bridge science) is that "when clubs is *the agreed suit*, 4♣ isn't Gerber". Guaranteed, no matter what you did before, no matter where you are now. There's no way that can be the best meaning.

Having said that, 4♣ minorwood certainly could be a reasonable meaning. With a pickup partner, however, I'd never believe it.

I also think that 4♣ "I wasn't interested in 3NT, partner, I have slam ambitions, clubs or NT" is a reasonable, good meaning - and *should* get a 4♥ (using first-round controls) or 4♦ (first-and-second up the line) cuebid - either should get you to the slam after your next cuebid is 4♠.

I agree with the posters that suggest your hand is not the one that should be asking for aces - not when the heart stop for 3NT could be QJxx.

[wyman]

VM1973, on 2011-September-07, 10:36, said:

Agreed. Any time 4NT would be quantitative, 4♣ is Gerber.

False. One example is in the OP.

[mikeh]

aguahombre, on 2011-September-05, 11:07, said:

When a Minor is established as trump, and something slammish is begun (cues, minorwood, kickback, whatever), one useful byproduct is to be able to stop in 4NT if things are not working out for slam. Throwing in 4NT to ask for Aces after cues mucks that up.

In addition, when clubs are trump, the ability to use 4N as last train can be invaluable. I think Frances has written on this in the past, as have I, and Justin recently made the same point.

This works fine with kickback or super-gerber.

[jillybean]

One more question, why do you use 5♣ as ace ask when you can raise to 4♣ then bid 4N over partners response to ask?

[aguahombre]

jillybean, on 2011-September-08, 00:26, said:

One more question, why do you use 5♣ as ace ask when you can raise to 4♣ then bid 4N over partners response to ask?

You need to lose the implanted idea that 4N should ever be RKC when a minor is trump. The responses are too high for the strain (you can't get back to 5C after a higher response) --- and as stated above, 4NT has better uses --perhaps even to play or for last train. Mikeh's post #32 is directly above and hard to miss.

Super Gerber 5C is too high for a minor suit as trump, also. Normally it is used when NT will be the strain, not a minor.

[jillybean]

jillybean, on 2011-September-08, 00:26, said:

One more question, why do you use 5♣ as ace ask when you can raise to 4♣ then bid 4N over partners response to ask?

aguahombre, on 2011-September-08, 02:02, said:

You need to lose the implanted idea that 4N should ever be RKC when a minor is trump. The responses are too high for the strain (you can't get back to 5C after a higher response) --- and as stated above, 4NT has better uses --perhaps even to play or for last train. Mikeh's post #32 is directly above and hard to miss.

Super Gerber 5C is too high for a minor suit as trump, also. Normally it is used when NT will be the strain, not a minor.

I am sure that last train is a very useful gadget however I don't play it with any of my partners and I doubt that I will be adding it in the near future.

This seems to leave me with these solutions, #1 for partnerships where I play kickback 1♠:2♣ 3♣:3N 4♦ is asking for keys.

#2 partnerships w/o kb 1♠:2♣ 3♣:3N 4♣:4x 4N or 1♠:2♣ 3♣:3N 5♣ , one thing I don't like about 5♣ super G is that it looks very much like it is 'to play'

[aguahombre]

Firstly: if a minor suit is going to be trump, something should be used to RKC for that minor; and that something needs to be low enough to accomodate the responses. This doesn't mean that RKC must be used; other 4-level bids might be appropriate for a hand which cannot take over.

I believe "last train" 4N would apply after a 4-level exchange which was not RKC (cue bidding, patterning, or still probing).

I don't believe "LT" 4NT is used when a keycard sequence has already been employed. "LT" makes partner the captain, and the person who asked for keys has already assumed that role.

Perhaps more importantly, LT should not be dealt with in this forum. My apology for that.

[Free]

vuroth, on 2011-September-06, 15:20, said:

Pickup, I think

1♦ 1♥
2NT 4♣

would be taken as G.

If opener had started with 1♣, it probably wouldn't be.

It's not because you take it as Gerber that it is Gerber... It's like saying 1NT-4m is namyats because you respond similar: it's NOT namyats, end of story.

[blackshoe]

The problem is that people who have a hand appropriate to a particular agreement are likely to assume that agreement is in place even if the sequence has not been discussed. Unless, that is, they have sufficient playing experience to recognize how dangerous that kind of assumption is.

Today, I had a pair who had the auction 1♠-(P)-3♠-all pass. Before the opening lead, putative dummy pointed out that 3♠ should have been alerted. My partner asked what it meant. Putative declarer said "it's standard, we play 2/1". Pressed, he said "Weak, maybe 4-6 points". His partner then said "four trumps, 0-5 HCP, we play Bergen Raises". The point being that putative declarer clearly had no clue what is "standard" in 2/1, or for that matter how to properly describe his agreements. He's not alone. OTOH, he's there to have a good time, not have to deal with all these damn silly rules.

[Vampyr]

sorry duplicate post

[Vampyr]

aguahombre, on 2011-September-08, 09:39, said:

Firstly: if a minor suit is going to be trump, something should be used to RKC for that minor;

I use four of the minor; perhaps it's not best. but it is simple and easy to remember.