[phil_20686]

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Opposition unknown, but seem like reasonable players so far. IMPS.

[BunnyGo]

I will bid 3♦ as a natural game try. There are many hands partner could have where game is on. I just need a trump honor, diamond help (either shortness or queen) and one other useful card (a black A would be nice or a second trump honor).

[rhm]

Clearly worth game.
Trial bids are for children and not adequate here anyway. I worry what to do over 4♠ when it happens.
3♦ gives at least as much helpful information to opponents (in bidding and play of the hand) than it will ever help your side to reach better decisions in the bidding.

Rainer Herrmann

[han]

Of course we are going to game. The only alternative to 4H is 4D, which would get partner involved in case LHO bids 4S.

[andy_h]

There are some 5-5's I would make a trial bid with but this surely isn't one of them as it's way too good. Bidding 3D will let LHO come back in cheaply but if they have a marginal hand I hope to keep them shut by bidding 4H now.

[mich-b]

I agree that the choice is between 4♥ and "preparing for their 4♠" by bidding 4♦.
4♦ has the drawback of helping them with their opening lead and defense , so I would bid it only if RHO had supported with 2♠ , which would make 4♠ from LHO likely. As it is , when RHO did not support , I will prefer 4♥ , maybe regretting it if LHO does bid 4♠.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

I am playing at least 4H.

The only question is, if I bid 3S, as a SI move or a to be prepared, if they bid 4S.

Dont know, 1S did not get raised, so fearing a 4S bid is ..., but they may bid 4S, if
I tell them, that I have spade shortage.

4H it is.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[mikeh]

I bid game. There are hands that warrant trial bids, but as others have said, this isn't one of them.

I don't bid diamonds because I don't want the opps to know the nature of my hand. I don't expect 4♠ on my left...it's not impossible but rho didn't raise and lho didn't blast away at his first call.

Had rho raised spades, I would bid 4♦ to bring partner into the decision making over 4♠, which is far more likely than when rho passes.

Btw, when deciding whether hands like this are worth game, the losing trick count is a valuable guide....we have here a ltc of 5! That makes this a powerful hand when we have a fit.

I also think that the lack of a spade raise on our right gives us some reason to hope that partner's spades are good enough to prevent a tap in that suit.

[Free]

4♦ will put partner in a good position to evaluate when LHO bids 4♠. 4♥ doesn't do that, and 3♦ is useless imo since it doesn't get our strength across.

[whereagles]

I'm going to make a slight mastermind and bid 4♥. Bidding 3D might make it too easy on LHO to bid spades and 4D might get pard too happy.

Better to just bid game and dbl 4S if they insist.

[MrAce]

I am in the 4♥ camp.

[mike777]

I am in the 4d camp.

[Phil]

Agree with MikeH. 4♦ is much more attractive if RHO raises spades. I don't think I want to give the defense any hints, so 4♥ for me.

[the hog]

I am just bidding 4H. I don't want to give away too much of my hand.

[jmcw]

mikeh, on 2011-September-01, 09:58, said:

I bid game. There are hands that warrant trial bids, but as others have said, this isn't one of them.

I don't bid diamonds because I don't want the opps to know the nature of my hand. I don't expect 4♠ on my left...it's not impossible but rho didn't raise and lho didn't blast away at his first call.

Had rho raised spades, I would bid 4♦ to bring partner into the decision making over 4♠, which is far more likely than when rho passes.

Btw, when deciding whether hands like this are worth game, the losing trick count is a valuable guide....we have here a ltc of 5! That makes this a powerful hand when we have a fit.

I also think that the lack of a spade raise on our right gives us some reason to hope that partner's spades are good enough to prevent a tap in that suit.

Nice explaination tx. My problem...why might partner not take 4♦ as a splinter.
It's clear from your reply and others that 4♦ is natural and a bid to consider here, but to be honest I may have considered that call a splinter.

[mich-b]

jmcw, on 2011-September-01, 21:10, said:

Nice explaination tx. My problem...why might partner not take 4♦ as a splinter.
It's clear from your reply and others that 4♦ is natural and a bid to consider here, but to be honest I may have considered that call a splinter.

In an auction that starts 1♥ - (1♠) - 2♥ , it is by far more likely that we will need to make a decision about competing to the 5 level , than about bidding slam. Thats why many players prefer to give 4 level bids meanings intended to assist in that decision (should we bid 5♥ over 4♠?).
In the rare cases when opener would still like to explore slam, he can still do it by other means , like a short suit trial bid (if you play them) , a trial bid followed by a cue bid on the 4 level, a splinter in the opps suit (♠) etc..

[MrAce]

jmcw, on 2011-September-01, 21:10, said:

It's clear from your reply and others that 4♦ is natural and a bid to consider here, but to be honest I may have considered that call a splinter.

It is common treatment for many players, in competition, is to splinter only in opponent suit and to play other jumps natural.

[JLOGIC]

mikeh, on 2011-September-01, 09:58, said:

Had rho raised spades, I would bid 4♦ to bring partner into the decision making over 4♠, which is far more likely than when rho passes.

I agree with all that mikeh said, but especially this.

[gnasher]

If we're not going to bid 4♦ here, why are we playing 4♦ as showing a second suit? Or, looking at it from another angle, what would a 4♦ bid look like?

I think these self-fit bids should apply only if RHO has just acted. When it goes opening-overcall-raise-pass, we'll probably always assume, or hope, that they're going to leave us alone. Hence a jump shift shoud revert to its normal meaning.

[JLOGIC]

True, but when LHO overcalls 1S we are much less likely to have a slam try that is a splinter in a suit that isn't that one though. Usually we will have short spade, and if we don't we will usually have a second suit that we would bid. But, if we are never bidding 4D fit then it isn't worth playing of course. I would think with most 6-5's esp with a spade void we would use a natural 4m bid, especially when our suit is hearts and theirs is spades...there would be too much chance of LHO bidding 4S.