[jillybean]

jillybean, on 2011-June-27, 19:55, said:

The F word!

Free, on 2011-June-28, 02:36, said:

It's "reverse F", so that doesn't count

I think it would be better called Yrennalf.

[Flameous]

In natural set up, I play weak jumps, but quite wide ranging comparing to most. Something like 3-8. This means that my rebid of a suit is good 8-11 and I still have bids for 12-13 point invites that might want to play there if partner holds stiff or something.
Over 1♣ I've also played 2♦ multi and 2♥/♠ as reverse flannery.

Over our unbal 1♦ opening we have 2♣ as multibid that may include wjs in either major, constructive diamond support or hand that can play 3♣ but is weak. 2♥ is 8-11 with both majors either way at least 54. Sort of less defined reverse flannery bid. 2♠ for us shows 5♥+4+♣.
But these are very specifically designed for our system so I doubt you do much with them.

3lvl bids I have always conventional, so no any jumpshifts there.

[the hog]

jillybean, on 2011-June-28, 15:52, said:

Funny, most players at the club here play Bergen but now that I think about it, maybe not the really good players.

How does 1M 2N invit+ work. Is 1M:2N 3x:3M inviational?

I've just discovered my partner plays Reverse Flannery with some of his other partners, so we could play..

RF or IJS (unpassed hand) and
Fit jump (passed hand) and
1M:2C* clubs, balanced gf, or 4M gf and
1M:2N inv+

Is that correct?

Do they know the continuations to Bergen, Kathryn? I bet they don't.
1M 2NT
3M = s/off against a min
3? = long suit trial now 4M = accept, 3M = I had a limit raise and am not enamoured by your trial suit.
Other bids by responder show different gf hands eg 3N = 16/17 raise, bid at the 4 level in a new suit = 14-16 splinter.

[jillybean]

the hog, on 2011-June-28, 16:49, said:

Do they know the continuations to Bergen, Kathryn? I bet they don't.
1M 2NT
3M = s/off against a min
3? = long suit trial now 4M = accept, 3M = I had a limit raise and am not enamoured by your trial suit.
Other bids by responder show different gf hands eg 3N = 16/17 raise, bid at the 4 level in a new suit = 14-16 splinter.

Hi, Ron. Sorry, we play reverse Bergen so responder is telling not asking. I don't know how much better this is than std Bergen.

Where can I find the full follow ups to Inv+ J2N? I've found this so far.. http://www.kolumbus..../bridge/fem.pdf

[mike777]

the hog, on 2011-June-28, 16:49, said:

Do they know the continuations to Bergen, Kathryn? I bet they don't.
1M 2NT
3M = s/off against a min
3? = long suit trial now 4M = accept, 3M = I had a limit raise and am not enamoured by your trial suit.
Other bids by responder show different gf hands eg 3N = 16/17 raise, bid at the 4 level in a new suit = 14-16 splinter.

HOg makes an excellent point even if his facts are off a bit.


His main point know bergen in full...etc....excellent pt


btw I dont play his version if it exists of bergen...

It iss hard to defend bergen if we cannot even agree what it is.

----------------------------
\


in any point the huge point of bergen is LOTT.

If you think LOTT is junk science then no reason to play bergen
--------------

otoh if you think bergen really helps you on comp hands...ok......

[the hog]

mike777, on 2011-June-28, 21:21, said:

HOg makes an excellent point even if his facts are off a bit.


His main point know bergen in full...etc....excellent pt


btw I dont play his version if it exists of bergen...

It iss hard to defend bergen if we cannot even agree what it is.

----------------------------
\


in any point the huge point of bergen is LOTT.

If you think LOTT is junk science then no reason to play bergen
--------------

otoh if you think bergen really helps you on comp hands...ok......

Uh Mike?! I didn't claim that what I played was Bergen or anything like it. It is what I play with my partners in certain partnerships.

Kathryn, this is played by a number of partnerships in my area.
1M 2NT = invit, or 16-17 flat raise or 14-17 spl
1M 3NT = 12-15 flat raise
1M double jump = 10-13 or 18+ spl

After 1M 2NT
opener signs off with a min, makes a long suit trial, (or s suit trial if you refer), bids 4M t/p 3NT with 18-19 flat, or makes a general enquiry with 3C - which can also be a long suit trial:
resp bids 3/4 M with limit -4 over a lst acceptance, NTs with the bal raise or jumps with the splinter

[jillybean]

the hog, on 2011-June-28, 21:32, said:

Uh Mike?! I didn't claim that what I played was Bergen or anything like it. It is what I play with my partners in certain partnerships.

Kathryn, this is played by a number of partnerships in my area.
1M 2NT = invit, or 16-17 flat raise or 14-17 spl
1M 3NT = 12-15 flat raise
1M double jump = 10-13 or 18+ spl

After 1M 2NT
opener signs off with a min, makes a long suit trial, (or s suit trial if you refer), bids 4M t/p 3NT with 18-19 flat, or makes a general enquiry with 3C - which can also be a long suit trial:
resp bids 3/4 M with limit -4 over a lst acceptance, NTs with the bal raise or jumps with the splinter

Thanks. What is t/p? "bids 4M t/p 3NT with 18-19 flat"

[the hog]

jillybean, on 2011-June-28, 22:57, said:

Thanks. What is t/p? "bids 4M t/p, 3NT with 18-19 flat"

t/p = to play

[mgoetze]

jillybean, on 2011-June-28, 15:52, said:

RF or IJS (unpassed hand) and
Fit jump (passed hand) and
1M:2C* clubs, balanced gf, or 4M gf3M inv and
1M:2N inv+

FYP

[jeffford76]

jillybean, on 2011-June-28, 18:15, said:

Where can I find the full follow ups to Inv+ J2N? I've found this so far.. http://www.kolumbus..../bridge/fem.pdf

Around here most the most common followups are that 3C is any minimum, 3D is extras without shortness, and 3H/3S/3NT show C/D/other major shortness. 4-bids are as in traditional Jacoby 2NT. Over the 3C minimum response 3D asks for shortness (with the same H/S/NT answers) and 3M shows that you had just the limit raise.

So the only non-GF auction is 1M - 2NT - 3C - 3M.

[phil_20686]

Ok, I will just put here what I play:

1m-2M= WJS. I also have no problem with IJS, but my weak is defined such that 1m-1M-2m-2M is the equivalent of an IJS.
1H-2s, 1S-3H = 3 card limit raise. I believe that it is important to removed these hands from the forcing or semi forcing NT. Particularly at MP, and particularly if you play 1M-1N-2N= various hands GF, and 1M-1N-3m= 5-5 GF. The NT tends to be overloaded anway. Since 1h-2s offers more room to opener, it can be slightly less well defined and you can make game tries over it.

I also play simple raises so that 1M-2M= typicall 4-8 ish with 3 card support, but also most balanced hands in that range with 4 card support. This means there are no major raises in the semi-forcing NT.
1M-3m, = invititional with a decent 6 card suit with no better than Jx support for openers major.

the 1s-3h IJS now goes through the forcing NT.

1M-3M= mixed raise, aboud 4-8 with 4 card support in an unblanced hand. May be say 4432 at white vs red, but will contain a singleton 70+% of the time, or 5422.

1M-2N= invitational+ jacoby, response structure below.

1h-3s, 1s-3N = void splinter in any suit, next suit asks.
1M-4m, 1s-4h = normal splinter 10-14 range.

1m-3M, 1m-4M, 1h-4S, are all to play as pre-emptive bids.

Jacoby response structure:

3C=any min.
3D= non min no shortage
3h/s/N = shortage, non min, in c/d/OM respectively.
4 level=5-5 non min.

After 3c min:
3d=shortage ask, with 3h/s/NT = shortage in steps, and the 4 level showing a min 5-5.
3h/s/NT = responder showing a shortage and asking opener to evaluate his minimum.
4c/d= cue bids.

After a 3D response, 3h/s/3N show shortage in openers hand, and ask opener to evaluate his hand.

QUite useful meta agreement is that after any shortage bid the first bid after that shows a hand that maybe has some wastage but still some useful cards. Better thana sign off but not good enough to cuebid. This extra definition is often more helpful than an extra cuebid. It is also very helpful when opener shows a "non min" shortage, as responder is quite ill defined. Here it will include most hands with 9-12 working points. A cue bid will include more. I do not play this when opener has already shown a min and then is asked for his shortage.

Note that 3C should be "minimum for slam", there is no inherent contradiction in showing a minimum and then raising partners sign off to game. In fact that is quite common with say 5431 13/14 counts. Or Maximal weak NT's.

An example auction:

1S-2N
3c-3h
3s-3N
4d-4H
4S
So opener is now, a minimum, with some but not a lot of wastage opposite a club shortage, and 4d=4h-cue bids, and the final decision is left to opener again.