[Vampyr]

Cascade, on 2011-June-01, 14:22, said:

We play

XX = strong
2any = natural

after pass opener is allowed to pull to a fivecard suit or redouble for doubt and responder can run.

We play most of this too. Also, after a natural club bid is doubled, responder can redouble with a 3-suited hand. Similarly, after 2♦ is doubled, responder can redouble with the majors.

We don't play that opener can redouble to show doubt. Why would responder suddenly find a spot to run to?

I think that any runout structure is OK, as long as it retains the ability to play in 1NTX.

[helene_t]

I assume that responder would show a two-suited hand with 2=2=(45) and also with (52)=4=2.

Suppose opener is 4=4=3=2.

Playing rdbl=one suit, responder would bid 2♣ with the first hand which opener corrects to 2♦. With the second hand, responder bids 2♦ which opener corrects to 2♥.

Playing rdbl=two suits, responder redoubles and opener bids 2♦, catering to responder having the first hand. Now you play in diamonds when a better major fit was available.

[Free]

benlessard, on 2011-June-01, 18:15, said:

I agree 95% with Free very good posts, the only thing i disagree is a weak 0-4 pts (4333) why do you XX scramble with such hands ? Play that pass is some pts or 4333 instead, partner will XX with any 5 card suit instead of XX with a maximum.

Well, my philosophy is the following: when we hold a 4333 with 0-4HCP, partner opens a weak 1NT and opps Dbl for penalties, then we are in serious trouble whatever we do. If you pass, or you bid something, you already know that opps can double you for at least -2 most of the time.

My runout scheme wants to put up pressure as high as possible. Bidding 2X is obviously pressuring. When responder passes, you want opener to pass 99% of the time, and reveal his psych in the rest. ;-) As a result, I prefer pass to be absolutely suggestion to play (not 2-way) so opener can pass with confidence, even if he holds a 5 card suit. Also note that hands with a 5 card (or even 6 card) suit are hands which are more likely to make 1NTx anyway because of their source of tricks, so why should opener (have to) run? If you add very weak 4333's into the pass, then you add some artificiality (which you already mentioned, gives something away). If West has values as well, he doesn't feel any pressure because he knows responder has the weak version and 1NTx will be a good score.

I've had bad experiences with weak 4333's after partner opens a weak NT, but it wasn't like we could do much better using another method. So it's not a really high priority imo, every system has a cost somewhere, I guess this is mine...

[Free]

helene_t, on 2011-June-02, 02:44, said:

I assume that responder would show a two-suited hand with 2=2=(45) and also with (52)=4=2.

Suppose opener is 4=4=3=2.

Playing rdbl=one suit, responder would bid 2♣ with the first hand which opener corrects to 2♦. With the second hand, responder bids 2♦ which opener corrects to 2♥.

Playing rdbl=two suits, responder redoubles and opener bids 2♦, catering to responder having the first hand. Now you play in diamonds when a better major fit was available.

Ah ok, now I understand. We don't RDbl with 5-4:

Free, on 2011-June-01, 07:23, said:

RDbl = sos, bid some suits up the line to find a playable part score (usually no 5 card suit unless perhaps 5-5)

With 5-4 responder bids his 5 card and that's just it. We might miss a 4-4 fit, but we find a playable spot immediately and put up pressure to opps. That's perhaps a tradeoff.

[gwnn]

double post

[gwnn]

Nice to see I agree with Cascade and even nicer to see I agree with Vampyr - what does it mean that opener redoubles for doubt, does it just mean if he's minimal? If so, I have doubts about it Also Wayne tut tut this sounds like a psychic control

[kgr]

I play when 1NT is DBLed for penalty:
XX: xfer ♣; or majors with longer ♥; or ♦-♥
2♣: xfer ♦; or majors with longer ♠
2♦/2♥: xfer
Pass: forces RDBL, but opener can pass with 4333 (DONT type after RDBL)

[campboy]

nigel_k, on 2011-June-01, 16:31, said:

If you are going to use pass forcing XX, then IMO the best way is:

- Immediate suit bid is to play
- XX is spades and another
- Pass then pull the XX with non-spade two suiter

This handles every two suiter except you cannot differentiate between ♣/♦ and ♣/♥, but I don't think there is space to show all one and two suiters. It gives opponents minimal extra turns and allows you to get to 2♠ quickly when you have a 4-4 fit there which can make life hard for opponents.

Agree, I've played this exact structure in the past for the same reason.

[benlessard]

Quote

I've had bad experiences with weak 4333's after partner opens a weak NT, but it wasn't like we could do much better using another method

Try passing you will see.

I know from your previous posts you have experience in weak Nt and understand what is really happening, so im rather convinced that if you think about it a little more you will see that passing with a broke 4333 is clearly superior to XX. The frequency isnt that great so i agree its not a priority but if you play 12-14 at all vulnerability and you have experience in weak nt defense and continuations I think my post is worth a quick look.


First of all how many pts your pass show 5+ ? 6+ ? both have drawbacks

if your passing with 5+ it mean that partner cannot business XX with a maximum and cannot X a 2M runout = almost pointless to play that pass guarantee pts unless its for scaring noob that will run with 5 pts.
If your passing with 6+ it mean that you forced yourself to scramble with some hands that 1Ntx has a shot or will be -1 or that west is going to pull. Not perfect.

Assuming your pass show 6+ (because 5+ is pointless) I dont have experience with passing show pts so maybe im missing something big, if so please tell me.

Does
1Nt-(X)-p-(P)
xx -(P)-P-(p)

happen ? My guess is not even once a year.

What about
1Nt-(X)-p-(P)
xx -(run)-P-(or run)
and you X them for -2

Its possible.


does
1Nt-(X)-P-(run)
X
and (wiggle or not) go -2 ? Very rarely is my guess.

(remember if south has pts and X them it doesnt count since ill be able to get them too at my table, only its when south pass showing pts permit north to X that its really a gain for your side)

So its pretty clear that the advantage of pass always showing pts is very minimal.

Now for the upside of passing with a broke 4333.
As West I would pass all 5 count, pass most 4 count and also pass and pray with a 4333 3hcp (do you ?)

I escape without a scratch when the opps pts are

20-3
19-3
19-4 /sometimes so lets divided by 2
18-4/divided by 2

so these hands you are almost in the -500/-300 territory while im going to be defending a partscore that can possibly still go down.

Also all the hands where I save 200 pts.

(4333) vs (4333) chance of reaching a 4-4 fit are 25% and even if you get the fit its possible 1Ntx score the same than 2Y doubled (the best is if they simply dont X you)
but when your playing a 43 fit with no ruffing power it doesnt yield half a trick better than 1Nt. So more than 1/2 you blow a trick by being 2y instead of 1Ntx

4432 vs 4333 less than 50% your going to have a 4/4 fit and more often than not your not going to find it. You will always play in the bad 43 fit (no ruff with short trumps side) so some small loss here too.

(4333) vs 5332 you should always be able to play undoubled or 5-3 fit but at a cost of missing 8 card fit in other situation. My guess is that you XX a 2C doubled to show the 3 OS so it mean you cannot used 2H/2D to show 5/4

A bit complex but here are the sequences
5242 vs 3433 1Nt (X)-XX-(P)-2C-(X)- you have to bid 2D here without showing wich suit is longer since you have to keep the xx for a (4333) i would play in S
4252 vs 3433 1Nt (X)-XX-(P)-2C-(X)-2D here you cannot show wich suit is longer since you have to keep the xx for a (4333) i would play in D

Its a bit more complex than this since is you have a 3=3=3=4 the chance of reaching a 44 clubs fit is clerly better that if you 4=3=3=3

As for 54 you should XX if your broke the best fit can save a neat 200, if your in the making zone they wont probably X 2C helping you find the best fit but if they do the difference between 53 and 43 fit is huge. Pressure is important but not as important as reaching the best contract in close making/going down situation. Again this is very obvious for me.

[helene_t]

Free, on 2011-June-02, 03:03, said:

Well, my philosophy is the following: when we hold a 4333 with 0-4HCP, partner opens a weak 1NT and opps Dbl for penalties, then we are in serious trouble whatever we do.

Well, sometimes you escape. Even if you run to a 3-3 or 4-2 fit opps may not always be able to penalize you.

[ARTjoMS]

1N X -1 is very unlikely to be a good score especially vulnerable, you are likely able to make more tricks in suit contract and it is more difficult for opponents to double.

It is plainly stupid to play 1N doubled if you think you have no chance of making, but if you think you have chance to make you want to go for +560 or +760 instead of +180. It is like bidding game, just with way better percentages. Opponents will be under way more pressure after 1N-[X]-P-[P]-XX-P-P-? comparing to 1N-X-Pass(to play).

[helene_t]

ARTjoMS, on 2011-June-03, 06:33, said:

1N X -1 is very unlikely to be a good score especially vulnerable, you are likely able to make more tricks in suit contract and it is more difficult for opponents to double.

It is plainly stupid to play 1N doubled if you think you have no chance of making, but if you think you have chance to make you want to go for +560 or +760 instead of +180. It is like bidding game, just with way better percentages. Opponents will be under way more pressure after 1N-[X]-P-[P]-XX-P-P-? comparing to 1N-X-Pass(to play).

Not really. If pass forces to redouble then opps can agree that a direct bid from advancer is 1-suited while a delayed bid is 2-suited. Or some such. If pass is not forcing then advancer gets only one bite of the cake.

[Free]

ARTjoMS, on 2011-June-03, 06:33, said:

1N X -1 is very unlikely to be a good score especially vulnerable, you are likely able to make more tricks in suit contract and it is more difficult for opponents to double.

It is plainly stupid to play 1N doubled if you think you have no chance of making, but if you think you have chance to make you want to go for +560 or +760 instead of +180. It is like bidding game, just with way better percentages. Opponents will be under way more pressure after 1N-[X]-P-[P]-XX-P-P-? comparing to 1N-X-Pass(to play).

Please take off your eye covers and also look at the NV situation. 1NTx-1 for -100 is usually a decent/good score, because many times opps can make 2M or 3m (or even 2NT with poor defense). With borderline hands you have to decide what to do: either play 1NTxx or run away (risking to play in a 4-3 fit - in which case you won't make that many more tricks as you claim). Me on the other hand can just pass comfortably and play 1NTx. If we make, we outscore most other pairs, if we go down we still have a decent score. You risk a complete bottom (1NTxx-1) to gain just a few extra MP for an absolute top (defeating most pairs + those 'idiots' playing 1NTx). It's plainly stupid to risk at least 50% for a gain of maybe 5% at best. That's what percentages is all about: gains vs losses. Your choice is a bad investment.

I used to play pass as forcing the RDbl, but in my experience, opps never let me play 1NTxx unless we were down. Since I changed to pass suggesting to play, I've had many very good scores after 1NT-(Dbl)-pass, we even make overtricks from time to time because 4th seat didn't pull with trash. 1NTx= has been very frequent, and sometimes opps run away when they shouldn't.

Opps are under no pressure at all after 1NT-(Dbl)-p-(p*)-RDbl-(p*)-p-...*, they have 3 times (see the stars) as much opportunities to pull (1NT-(Dbl)-p-...* is only 1 opportunity). It's naive to think opps will let you play 1NTxx when it makes.

[ARTjoMS]

I think it is pretty obvious that using words like ''gamde bidding'' i clearlly meant IMPs, (not sure why someone quotes me and makes arguments based on different scoring) if someone wants to build his system for MPs he can do it, i don't care, however most systems if they are not universal are built for IMPs.

1N-[x]-P-[P]-xx-[P]-P-??? you must be kidding me, +200 or -560 opponent is thinking... no pressure lol? he is far more likely to pull somewhere rather than after responders pass suggesting to play, where he is safe not to give away much, while safely keeping chance to collect a number.

Also runouts after this method is far way better than after Pass=to play.

To helene_t, but you do realise obvious downside that opponent will be immediately forced to decided if he wants to play XX or not,... before knowing whether opponents are really going for redouble or just running. I wouldn't make such an ageement and have never heard anyone using such.

[ARTjoMS]

+100 is ridiculously good score for opponents (not to mention +300)in such an auction, they didn't need to risk playing in 2nd level to get plus and opponents might as well be making something easily in 2nd level.

[Vampyr]

ARTjoMS, on 2011-June-03, 09:46, said:

1N-[x]-P-[P]-xx-[P]-P-??? you must be kidding me, +200 or -560 opponent is thinking... no pressure lol? he is far more likely to pull somewhere rather than after responders pass suggesting to play, where he is safe not to give away much, while safely keeping chance to collect a number.

How often, using this method, have you actually played 1NTXX (making)?

[benlessard]

What is naive is to think that one side is going to have a clear edge in a XX contract. With decent players all over it will always be 18-22,19-21,20-20. And within those pts range ive seen as many XX-2 than XX making. So the pressure of a of a XX is both way, if you play against noob that can be scared easily then OK i agree the difference between X or XX is there. But as west if ive decided to pass with 3/4 pts & a 4333 when they XX why would i run ? Dummy with 7 pts and a balanced can make a stand and my partner got 17 pts. Or partner could easily have a 6 card suits that we will be able to establish because hes got the lead. PS the original X will never run btw.

There are much more hands where south want to play 1NTx than want to play 1NTxx and its not close at all.

[mycroft]

Other benefits to playing 1NTx - 1NTx-2 is better than 3NT= at anything but unfavourable, and frequently that's what happens. 1NTx-3 is better than 3NT= at favourable. XXed, not so much.

Also, who says that we can't play 1NTxx? Yeah, some of the systems presented here (and the one I play currently) don't allow it, but for those that do, what's worse - 1NT-X-p!-p; XX-p-p-? (where you've already denied, say, a two-suited runout, and partner's denied whatever it is you choose to use) or 1NT-X-XX-?

Yet more: you're asking about -200 vs -560. -200 vs -280 is just as scary - especially against the other table's 110 or 120. If pass forces redouble, you have to be *confident* in your 560, which basically means you *expect* 760; if pass means you're playing 1NTx, you don't have to be - because -100 is okay, +180 is okay, and +280 if it turns out is not 760, but it's still a nice pickup. Hopefully -300 isn't going to be too bad.

I don't mind holding a yarborough when partner opens 1NT; the ones I hate are the 4-6 counts, where the field *isn't* bidding game, but we still aren't making anything.

[Mbodell]

I play both mini and weak nt and quite like the following system based on inverted psycho suction.

If the 1nt bidder's partner is an uph:

pass - to play (like other 1ntx-1 is often a good score, and even -3 favorable doubled can be good)
XX - penalty, they've made a mistake, creates a force (lots of bad people double on flat "same hand or better" and this XX is very valuable - usually leading to defending a doubled contract at the 2 or 3 level).
2X - Either 2 suited with X and X+1 or one suited with X+2, not forcing (so 2♥ is either the majors or clubs)
2nt - the two non-touching

If the 1nt bidder's partner is a passed hand then the XX forces 2♣ and responder will then bid the following over 2♣:

pass with 1-suited clubs
2♦ with 1-suited diamonds
2♥ with ♥+♣
2♠ with ♠+♦

and now you nearly always get out at the 2 level.

If it goes 1nt-X-P-P then opener can use the same system of run outs, including the XX forcing 2♣ since the most likely hands for opener to have when he wants to run are either both minors (5422) or a long minor (6m332).

When advancing the inverted psycho suction the responder with equal preference between the two suits can advance to the higher suit to allow the bidder to clarify, although especially when unvulnerable may tend to pass more if undoubled even if it may end up with a "silly" contract.

Playing these run outs I've had many, many, many good boards from opponents doubling and few poor ones (although any decent system would likely have more good than bad since IME many ACBL players don't know how to play against weak nt or mini nt and double way too often).

[Free]

One more argument against playing ReDoubled instead of Doubled on borderline hands: opps have the initiative because they have the lead. So on 20-20/19-21/18-22 hands, opps with a long suit will likely be able to establish their suit before you can establish your suit. Establishing a long suit on borderline hands usually means defeat in 1NT.

It's clear that ARTjoMS is absolutely convinced that his/her method is superior, which takes away objectiveness. His dream of +760 still has to come true while our dreams of +180, -100, +50, +100, +200, +300 and +500 have all come true many times.