[kayin801]

IMPs

---

Unsuccessful on a club lead when the ♠K was offside. The ♦K was onside, but it was twice guarded. Declarer won the 2nd round of clubs, tried the diamond finesse, but found the K didn't drop and then later got squeezed for winners in dummy leading to down 3.

We tend to play stopper asking instead of stopper showing, so while 2♠ wouldn't have been a complete lie, it would have been inconsistent.

[tolvyrj]

I think souths 3♣ made things go this way. Its a bit heavy but understandable.
What would have Norths dbl have been after 1♠, why didnt s/he told s/he has a ♥?

[whereagles]

Both overbid. South's 3♣ is optimistic and North's 3NT put too much trust on pard's bidding. Except for the club ace, North has a bad hand, with hcps of the wrong texture and in the wrong suits.

And you have to give the opponents some credit as well: they can't be bidding on empty all the time. Here it seems pard is probably doing his share of the overbidding as well, so 3♦ would be preferable to 3NT.

Anyway, it's a 20% game. We've all been in worse games looool.

[tolvyrj]

And far too many times .

[JLOGIC]

3N is too much

[the hog]

Why is 3NT too much when South is asking for a club stopper?
To my mind south shows something like
Ax
Kx
AKQxxxx
xx
South's 3C bid is a big overbid.

[whereagles]

Well Ron, we simply applied one of Hamman's rules: "when everybody is bidding like crazy, trust opponents, not bob!"

[ggwhiz]

the hog, on 2011-March-28, 18:07, said:

Why is 3NT too much when South is asking for a club stopper?
To my mind south shows something like
Ax
Kx
AKQxxxx
xx
South's 3C bid is a big overbid.

IMO, 3♣ was a bit of an overbid but 3nt was a huge one.

I would have passed the double of 3♣ and respected a sign-off in 3♦. Any hand strong enough for game as the one above would make a further try with 3 spades, 3 hearts or redouble.

[mfa1010]

3♣ is below 3♦ so it doesn't promise more than invitational strength. North can't bid 3NT on a minimum. With the hog's hand, south can just bid again and north will try 3NT the second round. (With that hand I would have bid 3♣ over 1♣ btw, but for some it is natural).

[kayin801]

mfa1010, on 2011-March-29, 12:39, said:

With the hog's hand, south can just bid again and north will try 3NT the second round. (With that hand I would have bid 3♣ over 1♣ btw, but for some it is natural).

This, or if 3♣ was being played as natural there I'd probably X to start with 7 solid and 3 outside controls.

I understand (and said it myself!) that 3♣ is usually looking for a stopper, but I don't know if it demands a 3NT bid with a stopper or not.

[the hog]

mfa1010, on 2011-March-29, 12:39, said:

3♣ is below 3♦ so it doesn't promise more than invitational strength. North can't bid 3NT on a minimum. With the hog's hand, south can just bid again and north will try 3NT the second round. (With that hand I would have bid 3♣ over 1♣ btw, but for some it is natural).

I disagree strongly with this.
I do think that (1C) 3C would be a nice bid IF:
It wasn't natural
It wasn't some Roman 2 suiter
It didn't show a solid 7 card minor and nothing outside as some do play it.
However be aware that you are giving up a chance to find a 5-3 Major fit by bidding this way as well.

To those who argue that overcaller could bid again, bid what? Would a Major not show some 6-4 hand? Overcaller heard partner's simple raise - this does not promise much except 3 card support and an outside card. To expect responder not to bid 3NT when holding the C stopper is really pushing it in my view. What do you want partner to hold? A of C, K of D and either A of H or K of S? You are kidding!

[tolvyrj]

Im north and its my turn after prd has bid 3♣ the oppos suit my RHO has dbled that; what to i do now? Do i start to second guess my prds bidding, because opps bid like they do? Do i start to find answers to questions prd didnt ask?
Nope. I bid 3Nt because prd asked me to bid it if i have a stopper in ♣ suit. I trust my partner not to oppos for the obvious reason that hes the only guy in the table at my side.
North cant know what is going on, he cant decide not to bid 3 Nt; if he does so hes second guessing his own pard bidding.

[the hog]

tolvyrj, on 2011-March-29, 20:46, said:

Im north and its my turn after prd has bid 3♣ the oppos suit my RHO has dbled that; what to i do now? Do i start to second guess my prds bidding, because opps bid like they do? Do i start to find answers to questions prd didnt ask?
Nope. I bid 3Nt because prd asked me to bid it if i have a stopper in ♣ suit. I trust my partner not to oppos for the obvious reason that hes the only guy in the table at my side.
North cant know what is going on, he cant decide not to bid 3 Nt; if he does so hes second guessing his own pard bidding.

I agree with you 100%.

[mfa1010]

the hog, on 2011-March-29, 18:32, said:

I disagree strongly with this.
I do think that (1C) 3C would be a nice bid IF:
It wasn't natural
It wasn't some Roman 2 suiter
It didn't show a solid 7 card minor and nothing outside as some do play it.
However be aware that you are giving up a chance to find a 5-3 Major fit by bidding this way as well.

To those who argue that overcaller could bid again, bid what? Would a Major not show some 6-4 hand? Overcaller heard partner's simple raise - this does not promise much except 3 card support and an outside card. To expect responder not to bid 3NT when holding the C stopper is really pushing it in my view. What do you want partner to hold? A of C, K of D and either A of H or K of S? You are kidding!

I'm not going to disturb you, except that I especially don't understand why a delayed major bid (3♣ then 3♠) also should be 6-4. It would be easier to bid 2M in my opinion.

[1eyedjack]

I think it is close. Give North the Spade King instead of QJ and there is a second entry to repeat the Diamond finesse, which is slightly better than 50% on the bidding.

But on balance i give South slightly more than the majority of the blame, with the balance being down to bad luck. I certainly don't blame North for bidding 3N. Sure, the opponents' double give you extra options, but what would he have done without the double? You can't build your system on the assumption that the opponents will cooperate by doubling all your bids and giving you extra space. 2D is a very weak bid. North has alternative ways of showing a sound raise (ie 2C). Unless you can see 9 top tricks with the assistance of a guard, you need not one but two guards (or good prospects for severing communications and only losing tricks to the short hand). South just doesn't have the oats.

Just my tuppence worth.

[whereagles]

tolvyrj, on 2011-March-29, 20:46, said:

Im north and its my turn after prd has bid 3♣ the oppos suit my RHO has dbled that; what to i do now? Do i start to second guess my prds bidding, because opps bid like they do? Do i start to find answers to questions prd didnt ask?
Nope. I bid 3Nt because prd asked me to bid it if i have a stopper in ♣ suit. I trust my partner not to oppos for the obvious reason that hes the only guy in the table at my side.
North cant know what is going on, he cant decide not to bid 3 Nt; if he does so hes second guessing his own pard bidding.

While you are totally correct in theory, in practice it doesn't work like that. The game is played by four players and you have to give everybody the right amount of credit for their actions. And it happens that sometimes partners don't have their bids, as it probably was the case here.

Of course, if you're playing the_hog 3NT is obvious. If you're playing someone who constanty overbids and/or expects you to have some extra cards, 3♦ is equally as obvious.

Unless I knew pard is solid, I would play him for 3♣ being an overbid. This is because:

- players have more tendency to overbid than to underbid
- opponents are bidding as well, so pard might be weaker than I think

As you see, while your bidding may be considered impeccable, the result was bad because you didn't play the table.

[the hog]

mfa1010, on 2011-March-30, 01:44, said:

I'm not going to disturb you, except that I especially don't understand why a delayed major bid (3♣ then 3♠) also should be 6-4. It would be easier to bid 2M in my opinion.

Michael I agree with this. My comment was directed along the lines of 1D followed by 2M, not with a club cue in between. I would still argue though, that if you don't want to hear the answer, (3NT), then don't ask the question, (3C). In the actual case after 3C, I suppose pd could have passed, personally I wouldn't. And what do you do if there is no double?

Nuno, I really cant disagree with anything you posted. With a typical BBO pickup you probably shouldn't bid 3C anyway as you might well end up playing there.

[Trinidad]

tolvyrj, on 2011-March-29, 20:46, said:

Im north and its my turn after prd has bid 3♣ the oppos suit my RHO has dbled that; what to i do now? Do i start to second guess my prds bidding, because opps bid like they do? Do i start to find answers to questions prd didnt ask?
Nope. I bid 3Nt because prd asked me to bid it if i have a stopper in ♣ suit. I trust my partner not to oppos for the obvious reason that hes the only guy in the table at my side.
North cant know what is going on, he cant decide not to bid 3 Nt; if he does so hes second guessing his own pard bidding.

whereagles, on 2011-March-30, 03:53, said:

While you are totally correct in theory, in practice it doesn't work like that. The game is played by four players and you have to give everybody the right amount of credit for their actions. And it happens that sometimes partners don't have their bids, as it probably was the case here.

It certainly happens that partners don't have their bids. But there are two reasons for that:
1) Partner has made a mistake.
2) Partner had to chose a bid that "misdescribed his hand least".

1)
If you are playing for partner to make a mistake, you are killing your partnership, unless you are aware of certain mistakes partner makes and allow for it which would be an implicit agreement. So, I will assume that partner is not making a mistake.

2)
There are some situations that are difficult to bid. So, North should wonder whether this could be one of those before he bids 3NT "just because partner told him to". Now North would be better placed in understanding his system than I do, but I would say that 3♣ is not the bid that I would expect partner to make in a difficult situation. I would expect partner to start the ball with 2♥, which certainly has a more cooperative feeling to it than 3♣ which forces North to make a decision between 3♦ and 3NT that he can only make based on his club holding. (Note that the double is a red herring. South bid 3♣ before he knew that West was going to double. That means that South needs to be prepared to play in 3NT opposite the North hand.)

My verdict in assigning blame:
North: no blame
South: all the blame, even though it was a gamble that could have worked.

My verdict in assigning credit:
Assume that the distribution of cards between EW would have been a little more fortunate for NS. I would assign the credit to NS for the good result that they would have gotten as follows:
North: all the credit for trusting his partner
South: all the credit for trying for a lucky game.

Rik

[han]

Agree with MFA obviously, 3C should not be GF and especially after the double north doesn't have to commit.

[JLOGIC]

lol the hoggg.

It isn't that difficult, 3C is a game try. Over that, partner can bid 3D with a min. If overcaller wants to be in game opposite a min with a club stopper, can then bid again with 3M (which is not natural due to failure to bid 2M the time before). Easy game.