Alerting Rules (as played inUK) Why Alert only below the 4 level
#1
Posted 2011-March-16, 16:23
after s sequence such as
3Mi (X)
(a)
3Mi (X) 3NT means (1)I may have the values for a punt at 3NT or (2) I am interested in saving in 5Mi if the oppenents bid game but only if partner has a genuine prempt with 7+ trumps
Presumably if we had discussed this then the 3NT bid should be alerted?
(b)
3Mi (X) 4Mi means I am lying in wait for the oppo to bid on, and may be looking to take a penalty and partner is not permitted to bid on
Under the current alerting rules ie alert bids below the 4 level, our side is a a total disadvantage if we employ method (a)
We have to alert and if the oppo are interested we have to tell them we are probably on the game, without them having to employ any skill in working that ou for themselves
If we use method (b) where we are setting a trap for the opponents - no alert is needed, and even when the opponents ask the meaning of our bid, we only have to answer something like "competitive"
Now look at things the other way
Suppose we reverse the meanings of the two sequences
© 3Mi (X) 3NT being either to make or the trap
Do we have to alert? After all both options would require values. So if we were questioned about things we wont have to give a complete explanation "values" would be adeguate, the oppo would have to take their chances if they bid on
(d) 3Mi (X) 4Mi) Looking for the save. No requirement to alert (above 3NT) and if the opponents do ask the meaning - an answer of "competitive" or "preemptive"
would probably be adeguate (but full disclosure would be unlikely)
The point I am trying to make in a roundabout way is when Alerting is necessary below an arbitary level - in this case the 4 level ?
If alerting is necessary why not any any level or perhaps below 3NT only or maybe not at all?
In the case where alerting was played as only operational below 3NT
there would be absolutely no way the opponents would be given a headstart warning about what ones methods were about.
Now that might not be fair and not full disclosure but it would make the game more interesting and would probably bring more into line with the way it is played at many levels of the game
If any one does reply to this query - I would be interested to know if they play method (a) and whether or not they have ever alerted the sequence
3Mi (X) 3NT and whether they have ever met opponents who alerted that situation?
thank you in advance for any replies
regards
thebiker
#2
Posted 2011-March-17, 14:31
Yes, I alert the 3NT bid.
Many of your points are entirely valid, I was in favour of retaining alerts above 3NT.
The counter-argument is that high-level alerts help the alerting side more than their opponents, in general.
Your point (d) however is wrong: if you have the agreement described in (b) you have to explain it fully if asked. This is nothing to do with the alerting rules.
#3
Posted 2011-March-17, 18:39
#4
Posted 2011-March-17, 20:19
paulg, on 2011-March-17, 18:39, said:
Yes, this is much better.
#6
Posted 2011-March-19, 08:08
It occurs to me that this regulation would be a good reason for requiring the bidding cards to remain on the table until the dummy is faced.
As for tv, screw it. You aren't missing anything. -- Ken Berg
I have come to realise it is futile to expect or hope a regular club game will be run in accordance with the laws. -- Jillybean
#7
Posted 2011-March-19, 18:17
blackshoe, on 2011-March-19, 08:08, said:
Usually the cards are left only until the opening lead is faced, since before that time third hand has the chance to ask questions while the auction is still available (and declarer has not seen the dummy).
In the ACBL, though, they will refuse to lead unless the bidding cards have been put away. But Stop Card and Convention card experiences suggest that if there were a regulation requiring the cards to be left out until the appropriate time, few players would comply and the ACBL would just change the regulation.
#8
Posted 2011-March-20, 07:50
If it went 3m (dbl) 4m and someone asked me what it meant, I would say, "To play; he could have bid 3NT to invite me to save."
If, instead, we played 3m (dbl) 3NT as either natural or a 4m bid that doesn't invite a save, I would alert it and describe it as "Either natural or a 4m bid that doesn't invite a save".
If we played 3m (dbl) 4m as inviting me to save, I would describe it as "Inviting me to save."
As for this:
Quote
there would be absolutely no way the opponents would be given a headstart warning about what ones methods were about.
Now that might not be fair and not full disclosure but it would make the game more interesting and would probably bring more into line with the way it is played at many levels of the game
You may be right about how the game is played at some levels of the game, but I can't see why you think the rest of us should be dragged down to those levels, or why anybody would regard a game played under such circumstances as more interesting.
I do agree that the rule about not alerting above 3NT is generally a bad thing.
#9
Posted 2011-March-20, 08:32
Vampyr, on 2011-March-19, 18:17, said:
In the ACBL, though, they will refuse to lead unless the bidding cards have been put away. But Stop Card and Convention card experiences suggest that if there were a regulation requiring the cards to be left out until the appropriate time, few players would comply and the ACBL would just change the regulation.
I agree 100% that trying to change anything in the ACBL is an exercise in futility, although I understand there are a very few clubs here where leaving the bidding cards out happens routinely.
As for tv, screw it. You aren't missing anything. -- Ken Berg
I have come to realise it is futile to expect or hope a regular club game will be run in accordance with the laws. -- Jillybean
#10
Posted 2011-March-20, 16:20
#11
Posted 2011-March-20, 18:32
1. required
2. optional
3. not mentioned
4. other
?
As for tv, screw it. You aren't missing anything. -- Ken Berg
I have come to realise it is futile to expect or hope a regular club game will be run in accordance with the laws. -- Jillybean
#12
Posted 2011-March-20, 18:53
As for tv, screw it. You aren't missing anything. -- Ken Berg
I have come to realise it is futile to expect or hope a regular club game will be run in accordance with the laws. -- Jillybean