[Fluffy]

There is a small point in playing hearts, but very slim, I think 4♥ is a cuebid.

I also think south's hand is not good enough to go past 3NT, certainly 3♠ bid would be more descriptive and less comitting.

Bidding 6♥ when partner is known to have 2 hearts show a big lack of judgement.

[TWO4BRIDGE]

Zelandakh, on 2011-February-28, 05:02, said:

Don, with hearts as the major I think there is a simpler solution to this. After 1NT - 2D - 2H,

2♠ = 2/4NT invite; or clubs; or strong (1-suited) slam try in hearts (Opener responds 2N = min, 3C = max)
3♣ = diamonds

After
1) 1NT - 2D - 2H - 3C or

2) 1NT - 2D - 2H - 2S - 2NT - 3C,

then 3D is a flag showing no fit, 3H obviously shows a heart fit and other bids show a fit in the minor:
diamonds for sequence 1
and clubs for sequence 2.

(And)You get extra space where you need it as well as solving the issue of 1-suited slam hands.

And here I thot I was being quite clever....

but your solution is "pure genius" !

[ArtK78]

There certainly has been a great deal of thought going into what methods one should employ when showing two suits in response to partner's 1NT opening bid.

But that is not the issue in this thread. The issue is whether 4♥ was a choice of games bid or a cue bid with clubs as trump.

To me, 4♥ is a cue bid. If responder wanted to play in 4♥ opposite no known fit, he could have bid game in hearts directly over 1NT (presumably by bidding 4♦). By showing two suits, he expressed slam interest and opener (rightly or wrongly) cooperated.

The final bid of 6♥ is a mystery (otherwise known as a breach of partnership discipline). True, 6♣ is not the best slam ever bid, but it is not the worst, either. 6♥, on the other hand, had no play. Nor should it be expected to have much play on the auction. Hearts was never agreed as a trump suit. Slam was bid in clubs (directly over a 4NT call which may or may not have been ace-asking). Whatever one might say about the auction, it is clear that clubs was the agreed upon trump suit. Removing 6♣ to 6♥ was a clear error.

[kenberg]

I suppose that the 6♥ was bid in a fit of frustration. It really can't be right, and probably he would agree.

The idea of using 3♣ as an exploration for a heart slam, and then 4♥ as a sign-ff when I support clubs rather than hearts, has received more support than I had anticipated. The two auctions that I would recognize as a slam try in hearts only would be 1NT-2♦-2♥-4♥ and 1NT-2♦-2♥-4♦. Either would have led to a 4♥ contract. The auction 1NT-2♦-2♥-3♣-4♣-5♣ would have been passed in 5♣. Whatever the merits of other approaches, these suggested auctions seem like straightforward ways to get to game contracts. When there are straightforward ways to reach game contracts and partner does something else, it seems reasonable to think that he has some purpose in doing so. I guess he did, but I thought the purpose was to try for slam in clubs.

[MrAce]

kenberg, on 2011-February-28, 10:19, said:

I suppose that the 6♥ was bid in a fit of frustration. It really can't be right, and probably he would agree.

The idea of using 3♣ as an exploration for a heart slam, and then 4♥ as a sign-ff when I support clubs rather than hearts, has received more support than I had anticipated. The two auctions that I would recognize as a slam try in hearts only would be 1NT-2♦-2♥-4♥ and 1NT-2♦-2♥-4♦. Either would have led to a 4♥ contract. The auction 1NT-2♦-2♥-3♣-4♣-5♣ would have been passed in 5♣. Whatever the merits of other approaches, these suggested auctions seem like straightforward ways to get to game contracts. When there are straightforward ways to reach game contracts and partner does something else, it seems reasonable to think that he has some purpose in doing so. I guess he did, but I thought the purpose was to try for slam in clubs.

Nice summary imo.

[TWO4BRIDGE]

TWO4BRIDGE, on 2011-February-28, 08:51, said:

And here I thot I was being quite clever....

but your solution, Zel, is "pure genius" ( for the transfer to Hearts ) !

Now, how do you handle the transfer to SPADES ?

1NT - 2H!
2S - ??

[TWO4BRIDGE]

ArtK78, on 2011-February-28, 09:14, said:

The issue is whether 4♥ was a choice of games bid or a cue bid with clubs as trump.

To me, 4♥ is a cue bid.

Responding to the issue.
Here is a very similar newspaper hand from 2/15/2011 ( gorenbridge@aol.com ).
It shows 4♥ as a Ctrl cue after ♣ were agreed !

4D = Ctrl Cue

---

( South was Geir Helgemo ).

[kenberg]

TWO4BRIDGE, on 2011-February-28, 15:51, said:

Responding to the issue.
Here is a very similar newspaper hand from 2/15/2011 ( gorenbridge@aol.com ).
It shows 4♥ as a Ctrl cue after ♣ were agreed !

4D = Ctrl Cue

---

( South was Geir Helgemo ).

Exactly what cue showed what is not so clear to me, after all it is N bidding 4♥. Nonetheless, despite the 6-2 heart fit the raise of clubs seems to have set clubs as trump and the slam was played in clubs. The article can be found (in no great format) at http://www.stltoday....b7c333efe8.html, mainly discussing the play.

But yes, raising clubs set clubs. Maybe I should call Geir up for a game? Another time maybe. After my date with Natalie Portman perhaps.

[Zelandakh]

TWO4BRIDGE, on 2011-February-28, 12:08, said:

Now, how do you handle the transfer to SPADES ?

1NT - 2H!
2S - ??

With apologies to Ken since I do not wish to threadjack...

Spades is more difficult since you need 2NT as a natural bid and there is thus less space. So I play a simple inversion of 3C = diamonds or 1-suited slam try and 3D = clubs. Over either 3H becomes the no fit flag, with 3S showing a spade fit. Over 3C, 3D shows diamond fit (cancelled by 3S from Responder showing the 1-suited type); over 3D, 3NT and higher bids show a club fit.

[kenberg]

No apology needed, I think my topic has run its natural course (and maybe then some).

I did not entirely understand your post. Holding five hearts, four spades, and invitational values when partner opens 1NT, I transfer to hearts and bid 2♠. Are you giving up this useful meaning? I realize that for some, 1NT-2♣-2♦-2♥ shows 5-4 invit, but I think most, including myself, play this Stayman auction as 5-4 weak. Or even 4-4 weak although I am not fond of that.

[straube]

I like 4H there as a slam try with 6H/4C but nf. If responder had a 6/4 hand that wanted to slam, he would simply agree clubs and give up on hearts. Usually clubs would play better anyway. For those who don't use kickback, 4S would be a cue and 4N ought to be RKC for two suits because both the heart and club king are key cards, whichever slam is bid.

[Zelandakh]

kenberg, on 2011-March-01, 10:51, said:

I did not entirely understand your post. Holding five hearts, four spades, and invitational values when partner opens 1NT, I transfer to hearts and bid 2♠. Are you giving up this useful meaning? I realize that for some, 1NT-2♣-2♦-2♥ shows 5-4 invit, but I think most, including myself, play this Stayman auction as 5-4 weak. Or even 4-4 weak although I am not fond of that.

I use 1NT - 2♦ - 2♥ - 2NT as an invite with 5 hearts and 4 spades. This has the disadvantage of not being able to play in 2S but the advantage that Responder gets another try when Opener has a fit, meaning that with hands that you might feel the need to force with in standard (in case partner passes with 4 spades) you can go low on the misfit and still raise to game later. Similarly (in a puppet structure) 1NT - 2NT is invitational with 5 spades and 4 hearts; 1NT - 2C - 2D - 2NT is invitational with 4-4 in majors; and 1NT - 2H - 2S - 3H is invitational with 5-5 or more.

[y66]

I think 3C shows a 2 suited hand with interest in playing in hearts or clubs and possible slam interest.

I like the 4C idea but maybe it's premature to bypass 3N.

I think 4H shows 6 hearts, 4 clubs and slam interest. With 6 hearts, 4 clubs and no slam interest, transfer to 4H immediately over 1N. With 5 hearts, 4 clubs and no slam interest, bid 5C over 4C. With 3514 or 1534 and slam interest, bid your 3 card suit now to show your shape.

I think 6C over 4N is a pragamatic bid. Responder has no business going to 6H or behaving that way.

[TWO4BRIDGE]

Zelandakh, on 2011-February-28, 05:02, said:

Don, with hearts as the major I think there is a simpler solution to this. After 1NT - 2D - 2H,

2♠ = 2/4NT invite; or clubs; or strong (1-suited) slam try in hearts (Opener responds 2N = min, 3C = max)
3♣ = diamonds

After 1NT - 2D - 2H - 3C or 1NT - 2D - 2H - 2S - 2NT - 3C, then 3D is a flag showing no fit, 3H obviously shows a heart fit and other bids show a fit in the minor, diamonds for sequence 1 and clubs for sequence 2. You get extra space where you need it as well as solving the issue of 1-suited slam hands.

As for the OP, one of the first things I learned in transfers was never to show the minor in these sequence unless willing to goto (at least) 5 of the minor. 4C unambiguously sets clubs so 4H should really be a cue rather than an attempt to play. In other words North has shown a good hand for slam in clubs. In the context of this auction 6H is unfathomable. I like Nigel's choice of 3♠ alot but I am not sure I would choose it over 4♣ with a random pick-up partner and no agreements.

Zel...

I have a question about one particular sequence:
1NT - 2D!
2H - 2S! ( a ) = 2NT/4NT invite; ( b ) = Cl is 2nd suit; ( c ) = long Hts, slammish
3C! ( max ) - ??

3D! = Clubs is 2nd suit = ( b ) hand
3H = long Hts = ( c ) hand
3S = ?? undefined
3NT = to play = have the 2NT invite ( a ) hand
6NT = to play = have the 4NT quant ( a ) hand+

What do you use 3S for ?

[han]

For me 4H is a sudden desire to play in 4H.

[gnasher]

For me 4♥ is a sudden suggestion to play in 4♥. How else are we supposed to bid Jxx QJ10xx x AQxx opposite Axx Kx Axxx KJxx?

With the South hand, I'd bid 3♠ after 3♣. I don't think that promises four clubs, but it shows strong spades, weakish diamonds, and some interest in a suit contract. If responder bids 3NT over that, I pass, if he bids 4♥ I convert it to 5♣, and if he makes a slam try I cooperate.

[Zelandakh]

TWO4BRIDGE, on 2011-March-13, 10:17, said:

What do you use 3S for ?

I use this seuqence to allow for split-range splinters. Essentially this (and also 4m) is a strong single-suited slam try with shortage in suit bid.

[TWO4BRIDGE]

Zelandakh, on 2011-March-13, 15:13, said:

I use this seuqence to allow for split-range splinters. Essentially this (and also 4m) is a strong single-suited slam try with shortage in suit bid.

Thus, after the min/max by Opener,
Responder's rebid with the long Ht hand:
3H = no shortage
3S!/4C!/4D! = long Ht hand with respective shortage

[Zelandakh]

Well, no (small) shortage or a hand that wants to hear a cue auction and the critical suit is below the shortage.

[TWO4BRIDGE]

Zelandakh, on 2011-March-13, 16:13, said:

Well, no (small) shortage or a hand that wants to hear a cue auction and the critical suit is below the shortage.

I think I "got it" now ... thx. :-)