[jeremy69]

Quote

Jeremy, seriously, have you ever seen an experienced player do this?

How many times have you seen palookas do this?

1. Rarely, if ever

2. Not very often but those who are inexperienced or have no idea of the stop procedure just won't stop. It is those who do know what it is and are choosing to ignore it or demonstrate why they don't agree or (rarely) give partner deliberate UI.

[Trinidad]

jeremy69, on Oct 17 2009, 06:25 PM, said:

Quote

Jeremy, seriously, have you ever seen an experienced player do this?

How many times have you seen palookas do this?

1. Rarely, if ever

2. Not very often but those who are inexperienced or have no idea of the stop procedure just won't stop. It is those who do know what it is and are choosing to ignore it or demonstrate why they don't agree or (rarely) give partner deliberate UI.

So you have never played against the group of people that are only slightly more experienced than your group 2? This is the group that knows the stop procedure, but doesn't understand what it is for.

These people that have been told by a TD, a friendly opponent or their bridge teacher that after a STOP they need to pause for 10 s. I think that Audrey Grant did a wonderful job writing the official bridge course books for the ACBL. The last book Introduction to Bridge. Spade series teaches how duplicate bridge is played at the club or in tournaments. From the 1st print, p131:

Quote

After you make your [skip] bid, the opponent on your left is expected to look at his hand intently for approximately 10 seconds before making his call.

After that she explains the purpose of the procedure, but I have seen many of her students who stopped reading right there.

And I have seen these "card out of the bidding box, then count to 10." people in every country where I have played. They are not obnoxious protesters. They are inexperienced people. They are trying to do the right thing, but they can't because they have never been explained properly why they need to count to 10. (And why counting out loud is the exact thing that they are not supposed to do. )

Rik

[nige1]

Trinidad, on Oct 17 2009, 12:29 PM, said:

And I have seen these "card out of the bidding box, then count to 10." people in every country where I have played. They are not obnoxious protesters. They are inexperienced people. They are trying to do the right thing, but they can't because they have never been explained properly why they need to count to 10. (And why counting out loud is the exact thing that they are not supposed to do. )

I agree with everyone else that the US regulation is at fault; and it is also a matter of education. In the UK, if the LHO of a skip-bidder counted to ten out loud, the director would explain that he was transmitting unnecessary unauthorised information and why that is to be avoided. Here, it is the responsibility of the skip-bidder to face the stop card while the skip-bidder counts to ten -- but not out loud either.

[Jlall]

nige1, on Oct 17 2009, 06:16 PM, said:

Trinidad, on Oct 17 2009, 12:29 PM, said:

And I have seen these "card out of the bidding box, then count to 10." people in every country where I have played. They are not obnoxious protesters. They are inexperienced people. They are trying to do the right thing, but they can't because they have never been explained properly why they need to count to 10. (And why counting out loud is the exact thing that they are not supposed to do. )

I agree with everyone else that the US regulation is at fault; and it is also a matter of education. In the UK, if the LHO of a skip-bidder counted to ten out loud, the director would explain that he was transmitting unnecessary unauthorised information and why that is to be avoided. Here, it is the responsibility of the skip-bidder to face the stop card while the skip-bidder counts to ten -- but not out loud either.

How is this different than what happens in USA? Are you just saying because it's mandatory?

If you use the stop card here you keep it there for 10 seconds and then you remove it. They cannot bid until you remove it. Obviously you are not allowed to count to 10 out loud here.

[suprgrover]

Jlall, on Oct 17 2009, 06:40 PM, said:

How is this different than what happens in USA? Are you just saying because it's mandatory?

If you use the stop card here you keep it there for 10 seconds and then you remove it. They cannot bid until you remove it. Obviously you are not allowed to count to 10 out loud here.

This is what the ACBL bid box regulations say about the Stop card:

Quote

Players should protect their rights and the opponent's by announcing, prior to making any subsequent bid that skips one or more levels of bidding.

Place the stop card so that LHO sees it (the skip bidder is responsible for gaining LHO's attention). The skip bid is made. The stop card is replaced in the bidding box.

NOTE: If a player forgets to replace the stop card there is no penalty. It is each player's responsibility to maintain appropriate tempo including after a skip bid.

So, the ACBL wants one to put the stop card away after displaying it, but leaving it out is tolerated. That's a lot different from the proper practice in other jurisdictions.

[nige1]

Jlall, on Oct 17 2009, 06:40 PM, said:

How is this different than what happens in USA? Are you just saying because it's mandatory?

ACBL bid box regulations, on Stop card, said:

Players should protect their rights and the opponent's by announcing, prior to making any subsequent bid that skips one or more levels of bidding.
Place the stop card so that LHO sees it (the skip bidder is responsible for gaining LHO's attention). The skip bid is made. The stop card is replaced in the bidding box.
NOTE: If a player forgets to replace the stop card there is no penalty. It is each player's responsibility to maintain appropriate tempo including after a skip bid.

suprgrover, on Oct 17 2009, 06:47 PM, said:

So, the ACBL wants one to put the stop card away after displaying it, but leaving it out is tolerated.  That's a lot different from the proper practice in other jurisdictions.

Also the US regulations don't appear to mandate that the stop-bidder waits (about) ten seconds before removing the stop card. It should be the responsibility of the stop-bidder not his LHO to estimate that duration. The stop-bidder's LHO should wait for the stop-bidder to remove the stop card, before making his call.

I now have more sympathy for JLall's and JDonn's attitude to stop cards

[Jlall]

Maybe it doesn't mandate it, but that is what "everyone" does here in practice. I don't ever use the stop card so I can't tell you what I do. Most people are not going to read the stop card and do what it says, they're going to do what other people, especially people they respect, seem to be doing. In tournament bridge that is the normal procedure (to put it down, make your bid, wait ten seconds, take it away).

My gripe has nothing to do with whether they keep it out our not, and I think jdonn if anything would prefer them not to keep it out.

I am sympathetic to the view that the stop card should either be made mandatory or done away with, kind of, I'm really only sympathetic to the latter view. I think it is so horrible that I prefer it be optional to mandatory.

[suprgrover]

Jlall, on Oct 17 2009, 08:45 PM, said:

Maybe it doesn't mandate it, but that is what "everyone" does here in practice. I don't ever use the stop card so I can't tell you what I do. Most people are not going to read the stop card and do what it says, they're going to do what other people, especially people they respect, seem to be doing. In tournament bridge that is the normal procedure (to put it down, make your bid, wait ten seconds, take it away).

My gripe has nothing to do with whether they keep it out our not, and I think jdonn if anything would prefer them not to keep it out.

I am sympathetic to the view that the stop card should either be made mandatory or done away with, kind of, I'm really only sympathetic to the latter view. I think it is so horrible that I prefer it be optional to mandatory.

One problem here is that the backs of most stop cards in ACBL bidding boxes properly reference the Swedish regulation that mandates they be kept out for 10 seconds. That has never been the ACBL regulation. Jlall plays a lot more bridge in tournaments than I do, and in more rarefied circles, but from what I see, practice in this neck of the ACBL woods is that there are multiple approaches to the stop card, with the plurality never using it.

(Another problem is that ACBL regulations are generally not publicized all that well at all.)

[blackshoe]

Some people put the stop card down, make a call, leave the stop card for a bit, and then pick it up. Some put the card down, call, and immediately pick it up (as the regulation suggests they should do). Some take the option not to give a stop card warning. In club games around here, and in sectionals, I have rarely seen any LHO of a skip bidder actually pause the required ten seconds. I haven't been to a regional or a national lately, so I can't speak to those.