[bob100147]

I was wondering about the current thinking about Stayman with balanced hands. So suppose your partner opens a 15-17 no trump. You have 11-12 HCP and you are 4333 or 3433. Do you look for a 4-4 major suit fit or do you bid 3NT immediately? Does the form of scoring affect your decision? Does anyone use a 3D response to 1NT to show this hand type (and keep you out of a 4-4 major suit fit if is also flat).

[jdonn]

I think the current expert 'consensus' is to not bid stayman on those hands. I will bid stayman if my hand is mostly concentrated in the suit (AKJx Kxx xxx xxx) since I expect the major to play better than 3NT if partner has any doubleton, but not otherwise.

As far as showing it systematically, if you insist then rather than use the 3♦ bid I would prefer to simply eliminate the invitation and have stayman followed by a raise to 3 be choice of games (maybe can also double as some kind of slam try?) You would get a bit more mileage than 4333 since you could also use it on 4432 with strong doubletons.

[Echognome]

I would generally not look for a major fit with a 4333 distribution.

I think the 3♦ call can be used for something more useful that showing this in about any system. It would really depend on the rest of your structure, but I can think of:

Natural INV
5/5 majors INV
5/5 minors GF
Splinter
Etc.

[Phil]

Agree with Josh. With less than 11, bid stayman since the diminished values frequently need the 10th trick via a ruff, or you rate to have a weaker stopper somewhere.

[Fluffy]

I believe that if you had to pick the contract, 4M is best in slation, but the difference is so slim that the info you give away for using stayman when you end up playing 3NT is not worth it.

I haven't ever heard of that 3♦ bid, but I have heart of 3♥/♠ showing 4 cards in the other major and game strenght.

[awm]

I would bid stayman at MP scoring only.

[kfay]

With one of my regular partners we play a modified scanian system where 1N-2N is a balanced GF hand that might be suitable to play in a suit if partner is dying to do that.

over this partner can ask for a 4-card major or show a 5-card major as well as do some other things. the whole system works pretty well, imo. and you generally don't give away a lot of info.

[JLOL]

Some people (Ralph Katz) do in fact play 3D as optional stayman.

Personally I think people bid stayman way too often, I would never bid it with 4333 and there are many 4432 and 5332 hands that I think you should be bidding 1N 3N on as well. Most people think I take this concept too far.

Also awm has often given his view on why stayman is better at MP than imps, I think that his view often underestimates the amount of time you can gain a trick by concealing declarers hand more, making their lead harder (people lead majors more often on that auction esp ones like xxx at MP), etc etc. These times when you gain 1 trick are some of the best gains of not bidding stayman at MP.

Also I think that in general you can much more frequently steal a trick in 3N than 4M for an overtrick since there is more room to maneuver, and these gains are not generally considered. There is just an inherent advantage to playing 3N.

I do agree with awm's general point that people who bid stayman much more often at imps than mp are silly though. I would say I bid stayman the same amount regardless of the form of scoring.

Oh also I should add that if I have slam interest then I will almost always bid stayman even with 4333.

[mtvesuvius]

I agree with everthing Justin said. Concentrated values make it more likely that I'll bid stayman, but even then, the MP gain is significant here.

[andy_h]

I used to think I would always stayman with 4432 (unless our combined HCP is 30-31 in which I'd just 3N it all the time) and never with (43)33.
But one day in a day pairs event I decided to blast 3NT on almost all of the hands (with discrepancies of course) and it worked out so well especially with the tempo of the lead into my major suit or sometimes our 4-4M fit that was breaking 4-1 lol. Easily converted there.

[Hanoi5]

On Wednesday my partner opened 2NT and I puppet-staymanned with:

♠Qxx
♥9xx
♦AQxx
♣7xx

Wrong, I know but I was on automatic as usual. My partner held:

♠Kxx
♥AKTxx
♦Kx
♣AKx

Opening leader held 5 clubs to the QJT so I expected 3NT to make 9 tricks only. Some people apparently (I'll have to check the scores again) scored 10 tricks in NT, not abnormal, but I thought 4♥ making would be quite a good score, actually turning out to be 6 out of 11...

That was an exception, I know, but I just thought I'll share it.

[Fluffy]

Hannoi it looks like you only lose 1♣, 1♥ and 1♠ to 3NT if you duck first club and they continue the suit.

[Hanoi5]

Would you duck the first club knowing you have probably 9 tricks if hearts behave? Would you like a spade switch?

Yeah, it's the correct line but few seemed to make it...

[Fluffy]

It seems obvious that 4♥ people have an easy path to 10 tricks.

By winning the club you are gambling a 4-1♥ splint (unfavourable) for an average instead of gambling a club continuation for a top

[JLOL]

Hanoi5, on Jan 31 2009, 07:09 AM, said:

Would you duck the first club knowing you have probably 9 tricks if hearts behave? Would you like a spade switch?

Yeah, it's the correct line but few seemed to make it...

LOL

[lexlogan]

I did some in depth analysis of the probabilities on this a few years ago and concluded that the risk exceeds the reward for using Stayman on 4333:

(1) They may double 2C for a lead;
(2) The defense can benefit from information about declarer's hand;
(3) Opener might be 4333 himself;
(4) Even with a fit, the hand may play better in notrump, such as when the suit breaks badly.

Against this, of course, is that if you have a fit, opener will most often be 4432, with a doubleton opposite three, which will often be a significant weakness at notrump and an advantage in the suit. But the odds are about 2-to-1 against your having a fit.

Compare to an auction like 1C-1H . Opener, with 3433 shape, should of course raise; there's no artificial call to be doubled and no information worth concealing. Bottom line: you want to play in the suit if you know you have a fit, but with 4333 opposite a balanced hand it isn't worth looking for the fit.

A significant point is how likely opener is to have a five card major. 3NT will rarely score well when there's a nine card major suit fit.

[lexlogan]

It took me awhile to remember the gist of my analysis: double-dummy, you should always Stayman. If you have a 4-4 fit, the odds are in favor of partner being 4432 (rather than 4333) AND trumps dividing 3-2. But the advantage was slim enough that I was convinced the informational disadvantages outweighed the potential benefit. I appear to have deleted that spreadsheet so I can't give the exact numbers. But the defense potentially benefits from Stayman every time you use it; the odds are something like 2-to-1 against your having a fit; and if you have a fit, the odds are around 40% that either the suit will break badly or partner is 4333.

[mikestar]

Agree quite fully except for this point:

lexlogan, on Jan 31 2009, 09:53 PM, said:

A significant point is how likely opener is to have a five card major. 3NT will rarely score well when there's a nine card major suit fit.

I have found that 5-3-3-2 opposite 4-3-3-3 very often takes the same 9 or 10 tricks in NT as it does in the major. Admittedly, the field is very likely in the major on a nine card fit, so bidding 3NT is playing top or bottom--but I seem to get more tops than bottoms on this.

[lexlogan]

mikestar, on Feb 1 2009, 10:22 PM, said:

Agree quite fully except for this point:

lexlogan, on Jan 31 2009, 09:53 PM, said:

A significant point is how likely opener is to have a five card major. 3NT will rarely score well when there's a nine card major suit fit.

I have found that 5-3-3-2 opposite 4-3-3-3 very often takes the same 9 or 10 tricks in NT as it does in the major. Admittedly, the field is very likely in the major on a nine card fit, so bidding 3NT is playing top or bottom--but I seem to get more tops than bottoms on this.

I would suspect you're inferring from a small sample. But a BridgeBrowser search would be interesting.

[bob100147]

lexlogan, on Jan 31 2009, 09:53 PM, said:

I did some in depth analysis of the probabilities on this a few years ago and concluded that the risk exceeds the reward for using Stayman on 4333:

(1) They may double 2C for a lead;
(2) The defense can benefit from information about declarer's hand;
(3) Opener might be 4333 himself;
(4) Even with a fit, the hand may play better in notrump, such as when the suit breaks badly.

Against this, of course, is that if you have a fit, opener will most often be 4432, with a doubleton opposite three, which will often be a significant weakness at notrump and an advantage in the suit. But the odds are about 2-to-1 against your having a fit.

Compare to an auction like 1C-1H . Opener, with 3433 shape, should of course raise; there's no artificial call to be doubled and no information worth concealing. Bottom line: you want to play in the suit if you know you have a fit, but with 4333 opposite a balanced hand it isn't worth looking for the fit.

A significant point is how likely opener is to have a five card major. 3NT will rarely score well when there's a nine card major suit fit.

Thanks very much - this is very helpful.