[Free]

I was just wondering if it's possible to construct a deal where the par score is 0. Anyone in for a challenge?

[david_c]

Yes, it is possible; I won't post it in case people want to have a go, but there is a fairly well-known construction where (hint hidden)

Spoiler

the defenders can cash the first eight tricks against any contract.

[jdonn]

I once had a deal where, based on the deep finesse analysis posted on the hand record as well as my own analysis with a friend, NS were cold for exactly 9 tricks but no more in all five strains. I really wish I had saved it.

[helene_t]

I didn't find any in the first 10,000 deals from the GIB DD database so they must be quite rare.

[qwery_hi]

If neither NS nor EW can make any contract, will the par score of that deal be 0?

[Phil]

jdonn, on Jan 17 2009, 11:27 AM, said:

I once had a deal where, based on the deep finesse analysis posted on the hand record as well as my own analysis with a friend, NS were cold for exactly 9 tricks but no more in all five strains. I really wish I had saved it.

Sometimes in DF, there is strain not mentioned because the other side with the lead advantage can negate 7 tricks. I don't know if I've seen this for more than 1-2 strains, but it would be fun to try.

[Phil]

david_c, on Jan 17 2009, 05:45 AM, said:

Yes, it is possible; I won't post it in case people want to have a go, but there is a fairly well-known construction where (hint hidden)

Spoiler

the defenders can cash the first eight tricks against any contract.

Hidden:

Spoiler

How can a defender cash 8 tricks against any contract (except NT I suppose) but not make anything his way?

[david_c]

Phil, on Jan 17 2009, 11:18 PM, said:

david_c, on Jan 17 2009, 05:45 AM, said:

Yes, it is possible; I won't post it in case people want to have a go, but there is a fairly well-known construction where (hint hidden)

Spoiler

the defenders can cash the first eight tricks against any contract.

Hidden:

Spoiler

How can a defender cash 8 tricks against any contract (except NT I suppose) but not make anything his way?

Hidden:

Spoiler

I didn't say "a defender", I said "the defenders" ...

(hmm, these "hidden" discussions get a little silly after a while, don't they? )

[barmar]

Phil, on Jan 17 2009, 05:18 PM, said:

Hidden:

Spoiler

How can a defender cash 8 tricks against any contract (except NT I suppose) but not make anything his way? 

Hidden:

Spoiler

Remember, the defenders get to lead to the first trick. The suit that's led makes all the difference.

[helene_t]

qwery_hi, on Jan 17 2009, 09:51 PM, said:

If neither NS nor EW can make any contract, will the par score of that deal be 0?

Yes. Conversely, if someone can make a contract the par score is not 0, but either the score of the best contract, or the cheapest sacrifice against the best contract. (Or, if 4NT= by NS is the best contract but 5♦ by NS makes as well while 5♣ by EW is a good sac against 4NT, the par score is 5♦ by NS).

[qwery_hi]

for a very good discussion of par zero deals, see

http://bridge.thomas.../deals/parzero/

[Tcyk]

Thomas Andrew has found a number of hands where no one can make any contract according to double dummy analysis. I believe they have a common theme based on the fact that the opponent gets to make the opening lead. I no longer have the site bookmarked because of crashes and new computers but I will when I leave this site. Search for thomaso to find the site. There are a lot of interesting things there including hands where your best results occur when playing in a 4-2 or 3-3 trump fit. He also has a free bridge dealer program.

[gwnn]

nice stuff,

[Fluffy]

par 0 doesn't look hard, what about both sides making 1NT due to not being endplayed on the lead?

This might be easy with 7-6s all around, but on regular hands I don't know if its possible.

[Free]

Fluffy, on Jan 31 2009, 11:44 PM, said:

par 0 doesn't look hard, what about both sides making 1NT due to not being endplayed on the lead?

This might be easy with 7-6s all around, but on regular hands I don't know if its possible.

That's not hard either. But what I also wonder if there are hands that don't have a par score. Your example of every side making 1NT is interesting, especially if everyone is vulnerable. Then what's the par score if every 2-level contract is defeated? Does such hand exist?

[bb79]

Free, on Jan 31 2009, 05:48 PM, said:

Fluffy, on Jan 31 2009, 11:44 PM, said:

par 0 doesn't look hard, what about both sides making 1NT due to not being endplayed on the lead?

This might be easy with 7-6s all around, but on regular hands I don't know if its possible.

That's not hard either. But what I also wonder if there are hands that don't have a par score. Your example of every side making 1NT is interesting, especially if everyone is vulnerable. Then what's the par score if every 2-level contract is defeated? Does such hand exist?

see the first deal in http://www.rpbridge.net/8k03.htm for an example for everyside making 1nt, but none of the 2level contracts make. As long as the dealer is fixed, there is always a par score.

[Fluffy]

lol, 3NT making by everyone, 3♠ making by both South and East, 1♥ making for everyone, there is a lot of weird stuff in this game!