Help
In regards to Kickback, after further discussion I've discovered our understanding of KB is diametrically opposed so I won't be adding it here.
more fun
#21
- hooked
-
- Group: Advanced Members
- Posts: 12,480
- Joined: 2003-November-15
- Gender:Female
- Location:Vancouver, Canada
- Interests:Multi
Posted Yesterday, 07:32
In regards to Kickback, after further discussion I've discovered our understanding of KB is diametrically opposed so I won't be adding it here.
“It is not because things are difficult that we do not dare, it is because we do not dare that they are difficult.”
"You need to play a lot of stuff these days just to deal with the stuff your opponents are playing" DBurn
"You need to play a lot of stuff these days just to deal with the stuff your opponents are playing" DBurn
#22
- Group: Advanced Members
- Posts: 2,139
- Joined: 2009-May-03
- Gender:Male
- Location:Kent (Near London)
Posted Yesterday, 07:36
I would usually want the strong 2C opener to be the one asking for key cards and would want to confirm support for hearts.
The cheapest bid to do this would be 4D (over 3H).
The cheapest bid to do this would be 4D (over 3H).
#23
- Group: Advanced Members
- Posts: 15,172
- Joined: 2009-July-13
- Location:England
Posted Yesterday, 09:21
2♣-4♣
4♥ (cue 4♦ would be KB)-5♦ (high card cue, denies heart or spade high card cue)
7N
4♥ (cue 4♦ would be KB)-5♦ (high card cue, denies heart or spade high card cue)
7N
#24
- Group: Advanced Members
- Posts: 15,172
- Joined: 2009-July-13
- Location:England
Posted Yesterday, 09:27
Tramticket, on 2026-June-29, 07:36, said:
I would usually want the strong 2C opener to be the one asking for key cards and would want to confirm support for hearts.
The cheapest bid to do this would be 4D (over 3H).
The cheapest bid to do this would be 4D (over 3H).
You do NOT want to confirm support for hearts with xxx, it is very likely you can make 7N but NOT 7♥
For us partner doesn't have solid hearts, or he'd have bid a forcing 4♥.
Do you want partner with AKQ, AJ109xx, AQJ, x (add frosting if this is not 2♣ for you), to discover you're missing a key and ♥Q while 7N rolls, no you want to set clubs
#25
- Group: Advanced Members
- Posts: 13,752
- Joined: 2005-June-15
- Gender:Male
- Location:Canada
- Interests:Bridge, golf, wine (red), cooking, reading eclectically but insatiably, travelling, making bad posts.
Posted Yesterday, 12:15
Cyberyeti, on 2026-June-29, 09:27, said:
You do NOT want to confirm support for hearts with xxx, it is very likely you can make 7N but NOT 7♥
For us partner doesn't have solid hearts, or he'd have bid a forcing 4♥.
Do you want partner with AKQ, AJ109xx, AQJ, x (add frosting if this is not 2♣ for you), to discover you're missing a key and ♥Q while 7N rolls, no you want to set clubs
For us partner doesn't have solid hearts, or he'd have bid a forcing 4♥.
Do you want partner with AKQ, AJ109xx, AQJ, x (add frosting if this is not 2♣ for you), to discover you're missing a key and ♥Q while 7N rolls, no you want to set clubs
I couldn’t disagree more strongly. Did you not notice that he opened 2C? Of course we set hearts, if we can, then keycard. We are never playing 7H anyway, but so what? Btw, if you and your partners consider AKQxxx solid, you should take another look. Solid means a decent play for no losers opposite a void. AKQJxx is permissible. AKQ10xxx is also permissible.
The main problem on the hand is responder preempting the auction. Had I only that club suit, I can respond 3N to 2C, since both the expert standard and my own partnership agreements say this shows 7 solid. Since it’s forcing, maybe I should do it anyway but our agreement is nothing outside. So I think a waiting 2D bid would probably time out better than this initial sequence. Kokish/Birthright complicates things, especially if you play the (inefficient) style in which one shows hearts by bidding 2H relay and then 3H over the forced 2S. Few good pairs play that. A common idea is to switch the 3C and 3H rebids over 2S…there are better methods but that one works here.
2C 2D 2H 2S 3C 3H. Sets trump and is forcing. I don’t care what he thinks is going on…I’m keycarding next time, unambiguously.
As it is, we can hardly afford 4H over 3H….he rates to have a minimum 2C opening so may well pass.
One could either have the agreement that 4D over 3H agrees hearts…probably best if it’s silent about diamonds since we may be too strong to bid 4H yet have no diamond control…or hope that partner will correctly guess that no other meaning makes sense. This works well if you have the sensible agreement that responder never shows a suit positive response with a real two suited hand. Then 4D can’t really be anything but slam interest or better, in hearts.
'one of the great markers of the advance of human kindness is the howls you will hear from the Men of God' Johann Hari
#26
- Group: Advanced Members
- Posts: 15,172
- Joined: 2009-July-13
- Location:England
Posted Yesterday, 12:33
mikeh, on 2026-June-29, 12:15, said:
I couldn’t disagree more strongly. Did you not notice that he opened 2C? Of course we set hearts, if we can, then keycard. We are never playing 7H anyway, but so what? Btw, if you and your partners consider AKQxxx solid, you should take another look. Solid means a decent play for no losers opposite a void. AKQJxx is permissible. AKQ10xxx is also permissible.
The main problem on the hand is responder preempting the auction. Had I only that club suit, I can respond 3N to 2C, since both the expert standard and my own partnership agreements say this shows 7 solid. Since it’s forcing, maybe I should do it anyway but our agreement is nothing outside. So I think a waiting 2D bid would probably time out better than this initial sequence. Kokish/Birthright complicates things, especially if you play the (inefficient) style in which one shows hearts by bidding 2H relay and then 3H over the forced 2S. Few good pairs play that. A common idea is to switch the 3C and 3H rebids over 2S…there are better methods but that one works here.
2C 2D 2H 2S 3C 3H. Sets trump and is forcing. I don’t care what he thinks is going on…I’m keycarding next time, unambiguously.
As it is, we can hardly afford 4H over 3H….he rates to have a minimum 2C opening so may well pass.
One could either have the agreement that 4D over 3H agrees hearts…probably best if it’s silent about diamonds since we may be too strong to bid 4H yet have no diamond control…or hope that partner will correctly guess that no other meaning makes sense. This works well if you have the sensible agreement that responder never shows a suit positive response with a real two suited hand. Then 4D can’t really be anything but slam interest or better, in hearts.
The main problem on the hand is responder preempting the auction. Had I only that club suit, I can respond 3N to 2C, since both the expert standard and my own partnership agreements say this shows 7 solid. Since it’s forcing, maybe I should do it anyway but our agreement is nothing outside. So I think a waiting 2D bid would probably time out better than this initial sequence. Kokish/Birthright complicates things, especially if you play the (inefficient) style in which one shows hearts by bidding 2H relay and then 3H over the forced 2S. Few good pairs play that. A common idea is to switch the 3C and 3H rebids over 2S…there are better methods but that one works here.
2C 2D 2H 2S 3C 3H. Sets trump and is forcing. I don’t care what he thinks is going on…I’m keycarding next time, unambiguously.
As it is, we can hardly afford 4H over 3H….he rates to have a minimum 2C opening so may well pass.
One could either have the agreement that 4D over 3H agrees hearts…probably best if it’s silent about diamonds since we may be too strong to bid 4H yet have no diamond control…or hope that partner will correctly guess that no other meaning makes sense. This works well if you have the sensible agreement that responder never shows a suit positive response with a real two suited hand. Then 4D can’t really be anything but slam interest or better, in hearts.
Mike
I agree with you in terms of what is solid, but if partner asks and you haven't shown this sort of club suit, how does partner know whether you have 5,6 or 7 and if you ask and a key is missing with hearts agreed how are you sure you have all the aces.
I don't have 2♦ available on this type of hand so it's 3♣ or 4♣. However in this type of sequence the auction is F4N after any positive.