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a most unusual auction

#1 User is offline   jillybean 

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Posted 2025-July-09, 18:31



You are called to the table by West who tells you that South passed and now wants to change their bid.
South only has the 1D card on the table and tells you that they thought their partner bid 4S

You ask South, did you put the pass card on the table?
South replies no, and then demonstrates how they reached for the pass card then banged the table twice.

You ask South how they became aware that partner had bid 4nt and not 4S
South hessistates, West offers that North glared at their partner.
South offers no explanation.

How do you rule :)
"And no matter what methods you play, it is essential, for anyone aspiring to learn to be a good player, to learn the importance of bidding shape properly."My natural inclination is to pass, but I’m a certified chicken." MikeH
"100% certain that many excellent players would disagree. This is far more about style/judgment than right vs. wrong." Fred
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#2 User is offline   shyams 

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Posted 2025-July-09, 18:43

IMO the ruling is "South passed".

I recall there was a ruling from a high-level, possibly a WBF bridge event played with screens.
* Players at such events rarely put the final pass on the tray and send it back across the screen (a technically incorrect procedure).
* Instead, they pick up their bid cards and send the tray back with the other side's bid cards for pickup.
* This one time, a player (who had erroneously withdrawn his cards not realising partner's overcall) tried to argue that the last pass had not occurred.
* The Directors at the event rejected his theory and ruled that a pass had been implied by the player's actions.
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#3 User is offline   blackshoe 

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Posted 2025-July-09, 22:08

South passed. And he's close to getting a disciplinary penalty for trying to get out of it the way he did.

As for the high level ruling, I agree with the TD -- you don't get to ignore the rules and then try to use that to your advantage.

Not putting out pass cards when people think the auction is over is a freakin' epidemic. :angry:
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#4 User is offline   pescetom 

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Posted 2025-July-10, 06:45

 blackshoe, on 2025-July-09, 22:08, said:

South passed. And he's close to getting a disciplinary penalty for trying to get out of it the way he did.

As for the high level ruling, I agree with the TD -- you don't get to ignore the rules and then try to use that to your advantage.


I agree, but find it hard to reconcile your judgement here with your judgement on the other thread where South was about to accidentally accept the LOOT.
It seems to me that in both cases we have to choose whether or not to privilege the spirit of the laws over the letter.
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#5 User is offline   pescetom 

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Posted 2025-July-10, 06:45

I would have passed as South in any case :)
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#6 User is offline   jillybean 

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Posted 2025-July-10, 06:53

View Postpescetom, on 2025-July-10, 06:45, said:

I would have passed as South in any case :)

LOL

I did not allow the change of call.
DP, PP, penalties of any kind are unheard of in club games, it would be odd to introduce them to this non sanctioned game.
I did want to spank North for giving UI and South for using it.
West is an improving player who also has an interest in the laws, I was impressed that they called in this "friendly" duplicate game.

South can't use any spirit to wake up after partner glares at them. We all know these players who visually check with their partner while , or directly after, making a bid.
It's a habit, as a nervous new player that I had to break, fortunately my partners were mostly poker faced. I got the angry face after the game.
"And no matter what methods you play, it is essential, for anyone aspiring to learn to be a good player, to learn the importance of bidding shape properly."My natural inclination is to pass, but I’m a certified chicken." MikeH
"100% certain that many excellent players would disagree. This is far more about style/judgment than right vs. wrong." Fred
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#7 User is offline   blackshoe 

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Posted 2025-July-10, 14:57

View Postpescetom, on 2025-July-10, 06:45, said:

I agree, but find it hard to reconcile your judgement here with your judgement on the other thread where South was about to accidentally accept the LOOT.
It seems to me that in both cases we have to choose whether or not to privilege the spirit of the laws over the letter.

Hm. Frankly, I don't remember "the other thread" at all. Hell, if I'd had breakfast (I didn't) I wouldn't remember what I ate! :-) I suppose I could go back and look for it, but that's too much work. It does occur to me that the situation would be different if South actually did accept the LOOT. And I'm not sure what "accidently" means in this context.

Maybe I'm just inconsistent because I'm old. :-)
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Our ultimate goal on defense is to know by trick two or three everyone's hand at the table. -- Mike777
I have come to realise it is futile to expect or hope a regular club game will be run in accordance with the laws. -- Jillybean
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#8 User is offline   blackshoe 

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Posted 2025-July-10, 15:00

View Postjillybean, on 2025-July-10, 06:53, said:

I did want to spank North for giving UI and South for using it.

Can't do that. They might enjoy it too much. :-)

Read them Law 90, or at least Law 90A. And maybe Law 91 as well. Then explain that you're not giving them a penalty this time, but they should remember these laws for the future.
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As for tv, screw it. You aren't missing anything. -- Ken Berg
Our ultimate goal on defense is to know by trick two or three everyone's hand at the table. -- Mike777
I have come to realise it is futile to expect or hope a regular club game will be run in accordance with the laws. -- Jillybean
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#9 User is offline   pescetom 

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Posted 2025-July-11, 07:48

 blackshoe, on 2025-July-10, 14:57, said:

Hm. Frankly, I don't remember "the other thread" at all. Hell, if I'd had breakfast (I didn't) I wouldn't remember what I ate! :-) I suppose I could go back and look for it, but that's too much work. It does occur to me that the situation would be different if South actually did accept the LOOT. And I'm not sure what "accidently" means in this context.

Maybe I'm just inconsistent because I'm old. :-)


The other thread is:
https://www.bridgeba...iew__getnewpost

Accidentally accept as in playing to the trick without realizing that the lead was out of turn.
But please follow up there, I don't want to hijack this thread.
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#10 User is offline   blackshoe 

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Posted 2025-July-11, 12:34

This thread is about a problem during the auction. The other thread is about a problem during the play. In this case, South passed, and then wanted to change his pass. He can do that if and only if the pass was inadvertent. It wasn't. He had a… temporary brain malfunction. In the other case, West led out of turn. Different situation, different laws. I don't see a reconciliation problem, but I'll post something on the other thread about this.
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As for tv, screw it. You aren't missing anything. -- Ken Berg
Our ultimate goal on defense is to know by trick two or three everyone's hand at the table. -- Mike777
I have come to realise it is futile to expect or hope a regular club game will be run in accordance with the laws. -- Jillybean
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#11 User is offline   barmar 

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Posted Today, 09:32

View Postjillybean, on 2025-July-09, 18:31, said:

You ask South, did you put the pass card on the table?
South replies no, and then demonstrates how they reached for the pass card then banged the table twice.

I know at least one player who uses knocking on the table like that as a way to alert.

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