[Cyberyeti]

WasWinM, on 2025-July-02, 06:32, said:

It’s hard to imagine the benefit of bidding-partner is highly unlikely to raise 1S with only 3 so finding a spade partial is more like wishful thinking. Bidding is really just hoping partner holds 45 in the majors as the diamonds are dead once you bid 1S unless you get really lucky and stumble into a 64 fit with partner’s rebid. A final question is what do you do when partner makes a game forcing rebid of 3C?

It’s always reasonable to ask what the benefit of bidding might be. Shape doesn’t claim its true value until a fit is uncovered.

That depends what system you play.

We play a weak NT with a 15-bad 19 1N rebid

1♥-1♠-1N-2♦(really bad 5-5) is not that unlikely.

[WasWinM]

Cyberyeti, on 2025-July-02, 07:38, said:

That depends what system you play.

We play a weak NT with a 15-bad 19 1N rebid

1♥-1♠-1N-2♦(really bad 5-5) is not that unlikely.

Yep, but if you have the gadget then it really isn’t a bidding problem is it?

[mikeh]

Imo it’s a 1S response, even though it’s easy to see how passing could be the better guess on some hands.

Pass ‘works’ if partner is about to rebid any of 2C, 2H*or 3H over 1S.

1S works if partner is about to rebid any of raising spades, 1N, 2N, or 2D or 3D.

* if he is planning on rebidding hearts, passing will often not gain since, in that scenario, it’s possible than 4th seat will balance and partner, with his 6+ hearts, will bid again anyway.


Btw, here’s a useful tweak for 1H 1 S 2C auctions….not one that helps on this hand but it can be very useful on different layouts.

1H 1S 2C 2D is either fourth suit forcing or a weak preference to hearts. Opener is forced to bid 2H, and now we pass to show the weak preference and bid something to show that 2D was 4SF.

The benefit is that 1H 1S 2C 2H now shows a doubleton heart with a constructive but non forcing hand…say a good 8-10 hcp.

In a 2/1 context, opener can have a strong hand for 2C….anything up to just not enough for a gf jumpshift. This means that opener may be bidding over 1H 1S 2C 2H, as in this case some since in standard methods 2H is very wide range and passing 2H might miss a game.

Back to the problem….while pass could work out well, I think bidding is slightly more likely to work out better. Of course, one problem is that the results on any given ‘real life’ deal won’t tell us much since we all know that either action could work or fail.

[mw64ahw]

jillybean, on 2025-July-02, 06:47, said:

You and your partner have the best gadgets for these bidding problems

This is no gadget. The gadget is playing 2♦ as GF which I don't use although the OP seems to want to impose this.
Partner has provided a choice of suits showing a limited hand and you have rejected either by bidding a suit below your original one asking partner to choose. If you want to invite or force bid higher than 2♠.

With one partner playing KI5 I will respond to 1♥ with 1N showing 5+♠ weak. Now the auction continues 2♣ - 2♦ again Pass/Correct

[Cyberyeti]

WasWinM, on 2025-July-02, 07:47, said:

Yep, but if you have the gadget then it really isn’t a bidding problem is it?

Of course it is, the gadget alters the odds, but doesn't help unless partner rebids 1N

[jillybean]

PLEASE post the full hand !

edit
Wow, 21% of players on that other site pass. Did someone break tempo?
I'm off to run the game, I hope to see the full hand when I get home.

[pescetom]

Glad to hear some votes and arguments for Pass and even 1NT.
FWIW I polled the initial response on that other Forum and the results were:
64% 1♠
14% 1NT
21% Pass.

Some more detail about agreements, as requested explicitly by P.Marlowe and implicitly by mw64ahw:
- 1♥ opening style is quite conservative, traditional 2/1 GF (and this was 2nd seat and vulnerable, too)
- 2♦ would indeed be Fourth Suit Forcing (for this hypothetical pair and for most of the tournament).

It's interesting to speculate how things would go after an initial Pass response (or if opponents get frisky for that matter), but let's wait until everyone has said their say over 2♣ first.

[P_Marlowe]

pescetom, on 2025-July-02, 09:29, said:

Glad to hear some votes and arguments for Pass and even 1NT.
FWIW I polled the initial response on that other Forum and the results were:
64% 1♠
14% 1NT
21% Pass.

Some more detail about agreements, as requested explicitly by P.Marlowe and implicitly by mw64ahw:
- 1♥ opening style is quite conservative, traditional 2/1 GF (and this was 2nd seat and vulnerable, too)
- 2♦ would indeed be Fourth Suit Forcing (for this hypothetical pair and for most of the tournament).

It's interesting to speculate how things would go after an initial Pass response (or if opponents get frisky for that matter), but let's wait until everyone has said their say over 2♣ first.

My comment was intended more in the direction, if you use a art. strong 2C opening with high freq., reducing the
overly strong 1 openers from the equation, keeping the bidding alive looses some of its appeal.
We play a weak NT system with a wide range 1NT rebid, this makes it easier to respond 1S.

Anyway, I think 1S is pretty normal, and "loosing" the diamond suit is not really a concern, if one is weak
with 4 spades and 6 diamonds, one looses diamonds as well, this happens from time to time.
One would wish, one would play Flannery, with 1S showing 5+

[pescetom]

P_Marlowe, on 2025-July-02, 09:57, said:

My comment was intended more in the direction, if you use a art. strong 2C opening with high freq., reducing the
overly strong 1 openers from the equation, keeping the bidding alive looses some of its appeal.
We play a weak NT system with a wide range 1NT rebid, this makes it easier to respond 1S.

Sure. This was strong NT, as mentioned.
The national style and regulations are tolerant of using 2♣ with high frequency, as a generic indication of willingness to force to game rather than genuine fear of Pass.
I agree that in such a situation the probability of finding a useful spades contract is quite limited, even if it existed.
Nevertheless I think that the detractors of 1♠ are minimizing some factors, such as the tendency of the field to bid that way and the doubt it sows in opponents about bidding NT or leading spades.

[pescetom]

Here is the full hand.

---

Don't be fooled by the BBO use of a fat Q and "10" rather than T, making South look like a 6-5.

Italians are less inhibited about off-shape takeout doubles than Americans and some West would have doubled 1♥ here, getting NS off the hook.

[Cyberyeti]

Did somebody check east for a pulse, I would have got my clubs into this auction and looked very silly at this vul

[WasWinM]

I would be curious how often an opener with 5 or more hearts also holds 4 spades.

[mike777]

Hmm
So east never bid and North forgot to run
Hmmm

[jillybean]

mike777, on 2025-July-03, 17:09, said:

Hmm
So east never bid and North forgot to run
Hmmm

and South didn't have a 1nt bidding card.
Awful hand but another win for weak nt

[jillybean]

WasWinM, on 2025-July-03, 15:45, said:

I would be curious how often an opener with 5 or more hearts also holds 4 spades.

I'm not bidding ♠ to find a fit

[smerriman]

jillybean, on 2025-July-03, 17:44, said:

and South didn't have a 1nt bidding card.
Awful hand but another win for weak nt

1NT on a 5-5-2-1?! If that's how weak nt works, I'm glad I don't play it..

[johnu]

mw64ahw, on 2025-July-02, 06:21, said:

2♦
Its not 4th suit forcing for me just indicating a 5152 hand at best. Partner can Pass/Correct

I play that 2♦ shows 5 spades and 6 diamonds and 1-1 in the other 2 suits and a hand that might have passed over 1♥. It doesn't come up often but when it does you can get a top score in a bidding contest.

[jillybean]

smerriman, on 2025-July-03, 18:12, said:

1NT on a 5-5-2-1?! If that's how weak nt works, I'm glad I don't play it..

1♥ 1♠ 1nt shows a 15-17 count
I realize many strong nt'ers will object to opening this 1nt

[smerriman]

 jillybean, on 2025-July-03, 19:15, said:

1♥ 1♠ 1nt shows a 15-17 count
I realize many strong nt'ers will object to opening this 1nt

If it shows both balanced and unbalanced hands in this range, it might be time to edit your signature

[mw64ahw]

 johnu, on 2025-July-03, 18:59, said:

I play that 2♦ shows 5 spades and 6 diamonds and 1-1 in the other 2 suits and a hand that might have passed over 1♥. It doesn't come up often but when it does you can get a top score in a bidding contest.

There was a discussion about the merits of 4th suit forcing in this bidding sequence on the other site some time ago.
Frankly I find it unnecessary. Playing 2/1 GF you invite via 2N and bid 3N/4N with GF/SI values.
Now you have the choice of what to do with weaker non-fitting shapes 5152 & 4162; bid 2♦ to show the former and 3♦ for the bar bid. You have a touch more flexibility on showing strength in an SA structure given that 2N is freed up.
Of course you're stuffed if partner's 2♣ is artificial!