[hrothgar]

mikl_plkcc, on 2025-April-22, 04:19, said:

Getting them down in 1NT means that we need to get at least 7 tricks in NT, which has the same requirement of we bidding a NT - a balanced or semi-balanced hand with at least 3 suits stopped.

Stop pretending that your weird little rules have any bearing on how experienced players actually play bridge.

Back before there was dirt, people claimed that you needed to have all the suited stopped to open NT (or three suits stopped or whatever). These sorts of requirements were abandoned six of seven decades back when people figured out that it was more important to be able to describe shape early in the auction.

You are a novice who is supposedly asking people for help.

Listen to what folks have to say.
If they explain something that doesn't accord with one of your "rules" proceed under the assumption that your rule is wrong.

[mikl_plkcc]

hrothgar, on 2025-April-22, 04:44, said:

Back before there was dirt, people claimed that you needed to have all the suited stopped to open NT (or three suits stopped or whatever). These sorts of requirements were abandoned six of seven decades back when people figured out that it was more important to be able to describe shape early in the auction.

The rules that we need to have three (or all) suits stopped when opening NT is that, without the stoppers, it is easy for the opponents to play for 50 or 100 each in undertricks instead of 30 each in odd tricks. Can you please explain how people avoid the opponents cashing the first 7 tricks when playing 1NT if the opening does not guarantee a certain amount of stoppers?

[shyams]

mikl_plkcc, on 2025-April-22, 10:35, said:

The rules that we need to have three (or all) suits stopped when opening NT is that, without the stoppers, it is easy for the opponents to play for 50 or 100 each in undertricks instead of 30 each in odd tricks. Can you please explain how people avoid the opponents cashing the first 7 tricks when playing 1NT if the opening does not guarantee a certain amount of stoppers?

How about adopting the suggestions made here unquestioningly (perhaps for a trial period of 6-10 sessions) and then evaluating for yourself whether hrothgar's suggestion is objectively better than your inane rule(s)?

[Stephen Tu]

mikl_plkcc, on 2025-April-22, 10:35, said:

Can you please explain how people avoid the opponents cashing the first 7 tricks when playing 1NT if the opening does not guarantee a certain amount of stoppers?

Sometimes, they don't. The opps run a suit and maybe some side tricks and set you. Avoiding a NT opening may have saved you in this case.

But in the meantime, stuff like the following things happen many, many, many times:
- although you don't have a stopper, dummy does.
- the opponent with the short side of the suit is on lead and doesn't find that lead, and you cash out to make before they can find the switch
- their suit splits 4-4 and they don't have enough tricks to set you
- their suit blocks, or blocks in practice whey they don't play double dummy.
- partner uses jacoby transfer or stayman to get you to a major suit, and your lack of stopper in NT is irrelevant
- although you go down, your NT opening effectively acted as a preempt/sacrifice and scores better than them scoring their major partial or whatever that they would have found had you opened something else.

While these things are happening, you avoiding the NT opening leads to an inevitable distortion on further rounds of bidding causes partner to either underbid or overbid, or get to a lower scoring strain. These losses add up to more than what you occasionally gain by avoiding the doomed x NT other tables reach.

[mycroft]

mikl_plkcc, on 2025-April-22, 04:19, said:

Getting them down in 1NT means that we need to get at least 7 tricks in NT

With you so far.

Quote

which has the same requirement of we bidding a NT - a balanced or semi-balanced hand with at least 3 suits stopped.

This is absolute hogwash. My absolute favourite example, yet again:

---

Okay, you might say, "but it's a 1NT overcall, showing stopper(s) in partner's opener suit." And one stopper in our suit and 5 tricks in another and luck-and-hope make 7." In fact, you say:

Quote

If there is an open suit, it is very likely that they can get 5 tricks in the suit and make the contract.

But *your partner exists*, and unlike when you opened 1NT, they've already shown "some cards". A good 12 HCP or so, at least. Either they're all in their suit - in which case, no, overcaller does not have a stopper, so let's discount this one (yes, I know people who will overcall with 9xxx as their stopper, hoping for luck, especially if opener's "suit" is a minor. Let's discount those, too) - or partner has stoppers in some of those other suits! Possibly two or three of them!

More often than not, "more points" and "no fit" means "they're going down"; especially if in a 22-18 or so division, one hand has 16-18 of those 18. Double especially so if you as declarer's RHO have some cards that might be entries, and magically that "second stopper" (or even the only stopper) - isn't. After all, you're on the opening lead!

And if it turns out your hand is something like:

---

, and you get to lead *your suit* and not the one they claim to have stopped (and partner has not given any reason to believe isn't) - this might go for more than the 3NT you can't make because yes, they *can* take 5 tricks if they get to lead first.

And here's a new trick, Mr. Knox: this is a safer double at IMPs than it is at MPs! It's not a double-into-game, it's not likely to get redoubled into game (it's likely they can't, never mind would); if it happens to make, you're losing 3 IMPs into -90 (okay, +90 if 2♦ makes. Sure about that? Sure they can't find "their fit" if you bid 2♦? Remember that other hand you posted?). 3 IMPs is not great, but it's a pretty Average-minus board. It's not like at MPs, where you are probably getting a (shared) zero (instead of a A-, sure, but still). And often when it works, it *really works*; 800 or 1100 territory. Which, even if you can find 3NT (or 5♦), is going to win double-digit IMPs against you.

[mycroft]

mikl_plkcc, on 2025-April-22, 10:35, said:

The rules that we need to have three (or all) suits stopped when opening NT is that, without the stoppers, it is easy for the opponents to play for 50 or 100 each in undertricks instead of 30 each in odd tricks. Can you please explain how people avoid the opponents cashing the first 7 tricks when playing 1NT if the opening does not guarantee a certain amount of stoppers?

My word, and you live (and probably learned) in the land of Acol NT openers. Which almost *can't* have "three (or all) suits stopped".

As you know, I play *by preference* 11+-14 1NT openers. I have played 10-12, 12-14, 14-16, 15-17 commonly - in fact, one week I played all 4 (*) - and I was directing three days of that! They all work; some may be easier than others, some may be more risky; but they're all playable (as are other ranges).

The reason 15-17 (being pushed to 14-17, or even 14-16 even in standard) is winning out is not because "it has enough stoppers to make 1NT", it's because taking that hand out of your other auctions make everything much easier (1♣-p-1♥-2♠; p-p, and you *know* partner has a minimum (with 15 balanced they wouldn't have opened 1♣; with 15-and-support, they'd raise; with 15-and-suit(s), they'd bid). And you know what to do! Now imagine if 1♣ was "clubs or 15+ balanced" instead of "clubs or 18+ balanced" (or a minimum we can ignore). You sure you know what to do now?)

When opener has 12-14 balanced, on average, partner has 8-12. When opener has 15-17 balanced, on average, partner has 6-10. When opener has 10-12 balanced, on average, partner has like 9-14. Which means, stoppers you don't have partner can have. Sure, they *can have* a below-average hand, but that's why one of the conventions weak NTers are most secure about is their rescue system. It doesn't stop them playing it, because again, repeat after me:

"The point of opening 1NT is to take those hands out of the rest of the system." Which is what shyams and hrothgar are telling you.

But what hrothgar (and I) are also telling you is that, even if you were right on openings, the requirements to open 1NT and the requirements to double a 1NT overcall are, shall we say, totally different? and there is absolutely no reason why something would obviously apply to the second because it apples to the first.

(*) Okay, okay; with one partner I played 10-12 first three seats NV and 14-16 Vul and 4th.

[hrothgar]

mikl_plkcc, on 2025-April-22, 10:35, said:

The rules that we need to have three (or all) suits stopped when opening NT is that, without the stoppers, it is easy for the opponents to play for 50 or 100 each in undertricks instead of 30 each in odd tricks.

Where do you get these "rules"?

Are they things that you're making up or are people telling them to you?

Some kind of corrective action is badly necessary, but its unclear what it needs to be...

[hrothgar]

Stephen Tu, on 2025-April-22, 10:50, said:

you avoiding the NT opening leads to an inevitable distortion on further rounds of bidding causes partner to either underbid or overbid, or get to a lower scoring strain.

This is a critical point that you really need to pay attention to

Most bidding systems are designed such that someone who opens something OTHER than 1NT is denying the shape strength that a 1NT opening would have shown.
If you chose NOT to open 1NT then, by definition, you are going to be forced to distort your hand on later rounds of bidding.

its possible that your "rule" is correct and almost every other bidding system in the world got this wrong and that you, a rank novice, are privy to some esoteric reveal truth...

Or, perhaps, the mistake is with you

[mikl_plkcc]

 mycroft, on 2025-April-22, 10:59, said:

With you so far.
This is absolute hogwash. My absolute favourite example, yet again:

---

Okay, you might say, "but it's a 1NT overcall, showing stopper(s) in partner's opener suit." And one stopper in our suit and 5 tricks in another and luck-and-hope make 7." In fact, you say:

I would have preempted 3♠ with that hand.

Honestly, why didn't the partner of the opener pull the double, having a suit wide open?

[hrothgar]

mikl_plkcc, on 2025-April-23, 14:05, said:

Honestly, why didn't the partner of the opener pull the double, having a suit wide open?

So, let me get this straight

Partner opens 1NT (showing a stopper in at least three suits)
RHO makes a penalty double

Your claim is that your pass would show that you have all four suits stopped (and by implication, if you DON'T have all four suit stopped) you're either bidding a suit or redoubling

Do you understand just how mind blowingly stupid that agreement is?

If partner opens 1NT and RHO doubles, your priorities are

1. Indicating that RHO made an awful awful mistake
2. Clarifying your shape

[hrothgar]

mikl_plkcc, on 2025-April-23, 14:05, said:

I would have preempted 3♠ with that hand.

You are guaranteed to set 1NT

Why in god's name do you want to force your partnership to the three level when you're only looking at 7 tricks in hand?

I think that the best action on this hand is debatable.

I would probably pass rather than double.
I know I can set 1NT
I don't want them scrambling to 3!C or some such

YMMV and I have no issue if folks wanted to double however, I've gotten good scores passing here

[hrothgar]

mikl_plkcc, on 2025-April-23, 14:05, said:

I would have preempted 3♠ with that hand.

A while back you asked why you were never able to break even in club games
I think we have an explanation

[mycroft]

Partner of the opener had 11 high. Opener had at least 12. More often than not - especially opposite doubles like yours (basically balanced, 15-ish points, covers in all suits. What does your partner have? Which way does declarer play all the finesses?) this makes *overtricks* - sometimes even 2 of them where everyone who didn't get doubled is only making 8 tricks when the defence *doesn't* tell them where all the cards are, or where nobody bids game because on more defender-friendly lies of the cards, they can't make it.

Yeah, sometimes 24 HCP are "out of 30". And sometimes when that happens, AKQJ is in one hand, accompanied by three little ones. And sometimes (same partner, same system, different event) you're +2160 into +630 instead. Or +1100 instead of +600 (or +500 into +120) when they run and have nowhere to run to. Do some simulations to see which is more common. I'll wait.

(and yes, I've seen posts here, I think by the 'Yeti, where they don't redouble-for-blood without at least something in all suits (like Txx or Qx). But still.