[blindsey]

What's the standard these days for 2♣️ openings, responses and subsequent bidding?

[mw64ahw]

In what system?

[blindsey]

2/1

[jillybean]

2C 22+ (or 8 playing tricks)

Responder
2D minimum Ace or King
2H no Ace or King

Openers rebid
2nt 22-24
3nt 25-27

Openers rebid of suit, I play as showing a 6 card suit

[jdiana]

I'm not sure there is a standard really. Here's Larry Cohen's recommendation - https://www.larryco....wo-club-opening

This write-up from Karen Walker is also good - https://kwbridge.com/bb/b_2c.htm

[jdiana]

FWIW, this is what I had in my old system notes. (Sorry about the formatting - it didn't carry over in the copy-and-paste.) Note that our notrump bidding ladder went up in 2-point increments. (A direct 3NT opening was 26-27 HCP.) I might change that if I were starting over. Many advanced players use Kokish/birthright. See, e.g., https://www.bridgebu...okish_relay.php

Strong 2♣ Opening

A 2♣ opening shows 22+ HCP if balanced. Unbalanced hands should have at least 20 HCP, or at least 14 HCP and be within one trick of game assuming that suits break evenly among the other hands. For unbalanced hands, also consider defensive strength and loser count - the hand should have at least three quick tricks and quick tricks should outnumber losers. [NOTE: LC says you should have at least two aces and kings and at least eight or nine sure tricks.]
Generally, we should avoid opening 2♣ with two-suited hands, especially with the minors.

Responses: 2♦ (NOT ALERTABLE) shows at least an ace, king or two queens; 2♥ (ALERTABLE) shows a “bust”, i.e., less than two queens. With 8+ HCP and a good 5-card major (usually two of the top three honors), responder can bid 2♠ to show hearts or 2NT to show spades (both ALERTABLE). A jump to 3♣ or 3♦ shows 8+ HCP, 6+ cards with two of the top three honors and no outside entries.

If responder’s initial bid is 2♦, then all subsequent bids are game forcing, and the principle of fast arrival applies. If responder bids 2♥ and opener then bids 2NT or a new suit at the cheapest level, responder may pass. Therefore, if opener wants to be in game even opposite a bust, he needs to jump to game on his second bid.

Opener’s Rebids: With a balanced hand, 2NT = 22-23 HCP, 3NT = 24-25 HCP (and systems are ON). With an unbalanced hand, opener bids naturally.
If opener’s first rebid is a major, it shows either a 5-card suit or a longer, non-solid, suit. If it’s a minor, it strongly implies a 6-card or longer suit. To show extra length, opener rebids the suit at his next opportunity. Opener's immediate jump to game shows a minimum hand with 9-10 playing tricks and long, solid trumps.
After 2♣ - 2♦, a jump to 3M by opener shows a solid suit and slam interest, like a jump rebid of a major in 2/1. It establishes the major as the trump suit and asks responder to begin showing controls.

Handling Interference: If opener’s LHO overcalls the 2♣ bid, then a double by responder (ALERTABLE) shows a bust (0-3 HCP) and passing (NOT ALERTABLE) shows a game-forcing hand (promising at least an ace, king or two queens). If responder bids a new suit, it is game forcing and usually shows a very unbalanced hand.
If responder doubles, opener may leave it in for penalty, especially with length and strength in opponent’s suit. Other bids by opener have the same meaning as if the auction had started 2♣ - 2♥.
If responder passes, opener will often bid 2NT with stoppers in opponent’s suit (and systems are ON as if the auction had started 2♣ - 2♦ - 2NT). A double by opener is for takeout, showing shortness in the opponent’s suit and typically four cards in an unbid major.

[pescetom]

I assume that your comments about alertable and not are ACBL specific. Over here, double showing a bust is probably sufficiently unexpected to merit an alert (although some directors might disagree or be tolerant either way) and pass promising honours even more so.

[jdiana]

pescetom, on 2024-December-19, 07:38, said:

I assume that your comments about alertable and not are ACBL specific. Over here, double showing a bust is probably sufficiently unexpected to merit an alert (although some directors might disagree or be tolerant either way) and pass promising honours even more so.

Sorry, yes - I should have said. That was designed to be compliant with the old ACBL rules for the Basic chart.

[jillybean]

jdiana, on 2024-December-19, 07:27, said:

Responses: 2♦ (NOT ALERTABLE) shows at least an ace, king or two queens; 2♥ (ALERTABLE) shows a “bust”, i.e., less than two queens. With 8+ HCP and a good 5-card major (usually two of the top three honors), responder can bid 2♠ to show hearts or 2NT to show spades (both ALERTABLE). A jump to 3♣ or 3♦ shows 8+ HCP, 6+ cards with two of the top three honors and no outside entries.

I have not heard of 2D promising two queens before. I assumed showing a first or second round control was key in this sequence.
Neither do I like responder starting to show suits/values and jumps to the 3 level. My mantra is 'stay out of the way of the strong hand' and let partner describe their hand.

[jdiana]

jillybean, on 2024-December-19, 07:59, said:

I have not heard of 2D promising two queens before. I assumed showing a first or second round control was key in this sequence.
Neither do I like responder starting to show suits/values and jumps to the 3 level. My mantra is 'stay out of the way of the strong hand' and let partner describe their hand.

As I said, people play this all sorts of ways. I make no claim that my agreements were the best. I was just offering the OP an example.

EDIT: This came up recently in another thread - https://www.bridgeba...rcraft-carrier/ I think "no ace or king" is probably more standard. I think my definition of a bust came from Karen Walker (linked above).

[bluenikki]

jillybean, on 2024-December-19, 06:52, said:

Openers rebid of suit, I play as showing a 6 card suit

So you rebid nt with 5431?

[jillybean]

Or very solid 5, typically it's 6
NT may be a good re bid, or I may have open 1M

I think I use a fairly standard approach to 2C openings and responses but there are so many variations and nuances it would be impossible to cover it all here. Balanced or single suited hands are great via 2C but if I have a 2 suited strong hand, I am more likely to open 1suit than 2C

[DavidKok]

There are many ways to play strong 2♣ auctions. Every single one, including the one I play, comes with costs. Starting at 2♣ is simply very high. The self-preemptive effect is large, and we cannot resolve everything we want to in the limited space remaining.

Instead of the full system I use, I have simplified it a bit to (hopefully) be more suitable for the N/B forum. It is a non-Birthright structure with 2♦ 'waiting' and no second negative:

2♣: 22-23 balanced or GF any. Other than 2NT itself there is no way to stop below game. Since these auctions are usually lousy I strongly prefer to open at the 1-level if I think I can get away with it, even with as many as 23-24 HCP. Therefore my 2♣ almost always contains at least 22 HCP.

Responses:

• 2♦: Waiting bid, contains all hands that do not match the bids below.
  
• 2♥: At least KQ-fifth in hearts.
  
• 2♠: At least KQ-fifth in spades.
  
• 2NT: -
  
• 3♣: At least KQ-sixth in clubs.
  
• 3♦: At least KQ-sixth in diamonds.
  
• 3♥+: -

Over the non-2♦ responses the bidding proceeds naturally, looking for a fit. If we cannot find a fit either hand is permitted to bid 3NT regardless of stoppers in unbid suits.

Over 2♣-2♦ non-Birthright looks like:

• 2♥: 5(+)♥.
  
• 2♠: 5(+)♠.
  
• 2NT: 22-23 balanced, semibalanced or 4441. Due to the increased pressure compared to other NT auctions it is permitted to include most semibalanced hands. May have a 5cM. Over this play my regular 2NT structure: Puppet Stayman, GF Jacoby transfers, and more.
  
• 3♣: 5(+)♣, but more commonly 6.
  
• 3♦: 5(+)♦, but more commonly 6.
  
• 3♥: Good 7(+)♥, or a solid six card suit. Sets trumps. Demands control bidding (including Nonserious 3NT).
  
• 3♠: Good 7(+)♠, or a solid six card suit. Sets trumps. Demands control bidding (including Nonserious 3NT).
  
• 3NT: 24+ balanced. Over this play (Garbage) Stayman and Jacoby at the 4-level.
  
• 4♣+: -

Over the cheap suit bids responder raises, introduces their own 5(+)-card suit, or bids NT if nothing appeals.
One cute wrinkle is using 2♣-2♦; 3♣-3♦ to ask for a major suit, but this goes beyond the scope of this post.

The above isn't that standard - not only do I not think there is a standard to speak of, I've also included some treatments I like that I know aren't too common. But it's flexible and relatively straightforward.

More than anything though, don't let anybody sell you snake oil. 2♣ openings are difficult even for experts, let alone for anybody else. There is no way to handle all problems on this start, the best you can do is improve your odds and decide on the effort-versus-reward tradeoff.

P.S. If the opponents interfere I play that double is takeout, pass is weak or a trap pass, and bidding is natural and forcing to game (Rubensohl is better but beyond the scope). I never had the desire to show HCP and double negatives before shape and ODR.

[mw64ahw]

I play a reverse 'birthright' structure which caters for Bust hands and includes a Weak 2♦. ~22+tp & 8.5 playing tricks
2♣-2♦
.. 2♥ relay
.... 2♠ relay
...... 2N 20-21
...... 3♣ 5♥
...... 3♦ 6♥
...... 3♥ 4♣6♥
...... 3♠ 6♥4♠
...... 3N 4♦6♥
.... Other shows some Bust hands
.. 2♠ 5+♠
.. 2N 22-24
.. 3♣ 5+♣<4♦ or 4414
.. 3♦ 4144
.. 3♥ 1444
.. 3♠ 4441

Primary strong ♦ without 4♣ except xx64 go through a Multi 2♦ with 2N being 25-27
Other strong minors go through 2N and includes pre-emptive ♣s

[mycroft]

jillybean, on 2024-December-19, 07:59, said:

I have not heard of 2D promising two queens before. I assumed showing a first or second round control was key in this sequence.

Where I learned, this was standard if playing 2♥ immediate double negative; 2♦ promised "an Ace, a King, two Queens or 6 HCP". This "A or K, 2♥ could be 12 high" seems to be a Western thing.

It clearly has its advantages, avoiding trips to the 5 level with two control cards missing, and allowing Queenwood et al.

But when I have a quacky 8 (rare, but it happens), and partner doesn't limit their hand with NT, it is difficult to get the positive nature of my "double negative" hand across.

Quote

Neither do I like responder starting to show suits/values and jumps to the 3 level. My mantra is 'stay out of the way of the strong hand' and let partner describe their hand.

Nor do I (except the "required" 3♦ call), which is why they are very specific bids, which usually allow the strong hand to pinpoint values. I do remember one game where more than one pair asked us how we (only in a 13-ish table game) got to 7♣. "2♣-3♣, then it was obvious" was our response.

[jdiana]

As often happens with these threads, we're probably getting a little far afield from the OP's question, i.e., "what's standard?"

I go back to my original answer - there probably is no clear standard. It depends a lot on what level we're at. Beginner standard is much different than "expert standard", again, assuming there is any such thing.

[jillybean]

mycroft, on 2024-December-19, 10:55, said:

Where I learned, this was standard if playing 2♥ immediate double negative; 2♦ promised "an Ace, a King, two Queens or 6 HCP". This "A or K, 2♥ could be 12 high" seems to be a Western thing.

When and where was this?

[mike777]

Where I learned, this was standard if playing 2♥ immediate double negative; 2♦ promised "an Ace, a King, two Queens or 6 HCP". This "A or K, 2♥ could be 12 high" seems to be a Western thing.

It clearly has its advantages, avoiding trips to the 5 level with two control cards missing, and allowing Queenwood et al.

But when I have a quacky 8 (rare, but it happens), and partner doesn't limit their hand with NT, it is difficult to get the positive nature of my "double negative" hand across.

Interesting, had not heard that one, yes must be a western thing.

2d is gf promising an Ace or King
2H is nongf but unlimited Qs or Js , responder strains to bid again but can pass.

I guess I should add, 2Clubs, not gf...but many do play it gf...

[jdiana]

One of my favorite sources of system info is Robert Todd's This Week in Bridge articles. In this one, he also describes the 2♦ bid as "Artificial Game Forcing – Shows at least an Ace, King, or two Queens." So perhaps not all that rare.

https://www.advinbri...k-in-bridge/415

I know many play it as you do, though - mikeh included - and that's perfectly reasonable.

[pescetom]

I play 2♥ as denying a K or A, like mikeh (on his inspiration).
I previously played 2♦ as simply denying a strong suit, like Davidkok.
On reflection I could live with either, and don't consider it that important... but I do think the 2♥ Red Flag is a marginal winner at MP.

Of course even that depends upon how the others are bidding: in UK it is illegal to open 2♣ without half the pack and in US at least frowned upon, but over here you can announce "strong" and open 2♣ on any hand you feel is worth a game force, so quite often the rest of the field will be in 2♣-2♦- single suit destined by an unlucky deal to go down 1 if they bid unconditionally to game.

I like to control-bid and so would not want to receive a green light with two Queens. More in general, if Opener is balanced it is he that should show points strength and Responder that should place the contract, not vice versa. It hasn't happened to me yet that we miss a game or slam because responder had the quacky monster, which in part may be luck, but also because we bid in NT wherever possible and so Responder is free to raise quantitatively.

I could say a lot more, but this is N/B forum.
I don't apologize for not offering a standard, because there is not much and it is not very good either (see 2NT response as an example).
A good start is to recognise that this opening is a minefield, use it for strong balanced hands and very strong single suiters and open 1 in a suit otherwise. You can add in some other shapes (or not) as you get more experienced.