[shugart24]

My son and I are experimenting with putting 5M332 hands into either the 1D or 1NT bid, and so far, we like it. Given this, I am looking for a little advice on what Opener's 2nd bid could or should mean in: 1H -1S-2NT and 1H -1S -3C (or 3D). The latter bid seems to me could be showing a maximum hand, at least 5-5 in hearts and the minor, Spade shortness, non-forcing. The Former seems to be undefined. so could be anything we want. Anyone care to opine on this Father's Day ? (Is there Father's Day outside of the US?)

[DavidKok]

I think the most common use is the "BW Death Hand" - exactly 3 card support for the major, 6(+) cards in the opened suit, and a maximum (though with a good 6-card suit even a below average amount of HCP hand might well have maximum playing strength). This applies to the sequences 1♦-1M; 2NT as well as 1♥-1♠; 2NT. There is theoretical merit to putting the 3-card 'raise' in the 3X rebid (so 3♦ over 1♦, and 3♥ over 1♥) and making 2NT the 'maximum 6-card suit rebid without 3-card support', but this is not as mainstream.

Alternatively you could treat it as a forcing artificial raise, but it's slightly more complicated and in a limited opening context the payoff isn't that high.

[awm]

There's fathers day in Switzerland but it was celebrated on June 2nd. Of course, my father is in the US so it's June 16th for him.

What is 1♥-1♠-1NT for you? This would seem to be the cheapest sequence that you no longer need, and your choices here impact the rest of your system.

It's fairly popular to play transfer rebids, but I think that is better in a system with wider opening ranges. My preference would be something like 1NT=diamonds and 2♦=3-card spade raise.

One popular treatment for 2NT is to show 6♥+3♠ and maximum, but if you have another way to show a 3-card raise you will not need this.

1♥-1♠-3♣ in precision is normally played as a maximum with 5♥+5♣; my preference is for this to be 6♥+5♣ (less common, but you will get better results when it comes up).

[shugart24]

DavidKok, on 2024-June-16, 06:51, said:

I think the most common use is the "BW Death Hand" - exactly 3 card support for the major, 6(+) cards in the opened suit, and a maximum (though with a good 6-card suit even a below average amount of HCP hand might well have maximum playing strength). This applies to the sequences 1♦-1M; 2NT as well as 1♥-1♠; 2NT. There is theoretical merit to putting the 3-card 'raise' in the 3X rebid (so 3♦ over 1♦, and 3♥ over 1♥) and making 2NT the 'maximum 6-card suit rebid without 3-card support', but this is not as mainstream.

Alternatively you could treat it as a forcing artificial raise, but it's slightly more complicated and in a limited opening context the payoff isn't that high.

So opener's hand would be 3622 or 3631 or 3613 , maximum count is your suggestion ? DO you agree on what i said about 1H -1S -3C or 3D ?

[DavidKok]

I would also allow 3=6=(04), and also permit some 3=7=x=y hands. If you can show your strength, support and extra length in the opening suit in a single bid I don't think a different route is going to be more descriptive. Especially in a Precision context where 1♦ is nebulous and the 1♦-1M; 2♣ sequence is often still nebulous, I'd take the chance to show some of these features at once.

I think the sequences 1♥-1♠; 3♣, 1♥-1♠; 3♦, 1♦-1♥; 3♣ and 1♦-1♠-3♣ normally all show a maximum (so 14-15, maybe a good 13) 5-5 type hand. In fact, the 1X-1NT; 3Y (Y lower than X) sequences normally do too. I don't know whether that is a good use, let alone the best use, but I do think it's relatively standard.

Something in general that I think even very strong players do not give enough weight is that it is important to have a bid in your system for every hand, but not important to have a hand for every bid. It is common for system enthusiasts to cram their notes full of rare hand types and sequences 'because the bid was idle'. In my experience this is not a good way to improve a system, and in fact often ends up making it worse. Focus on the meaning of the cheapest calls, patterning out, having ways to raise partner. Then find which hand types struggle in your system. If any of those would fit well in a jump bid, and it is easy to memorise, and you think it will come up somewhat frequently, and if either you or your partner forgets it likely won't be a terrible disaster, add it to your system. But don't invent meanings of new bids just because you can. The "BW Death Hand" is such an example - showing extra length in the opening suit along with 3-card support is very awkward, and the maximum provides safety for pushing to the 3-level.

[shugart24]

awm, on 2024-June-16, 06:54, said:

There's fathers day in Switzerland but it was celebrated on June 2nd. Of course, my father is in the US so it's June 16th for him.

What is 1♥-1♠-1NT for you? This would seem to be the cheapest sequence that you no longer need, and your choices here impact the rest of your system.

It's fairly popular to play transfer rebids, but I think that is better in a system with wider opening ranges. My preference would be something like 1NT=diamonds and 2♦=3-card spade raise.

One popular treatment for 2NT is to show 6♥+3♠ and maximum, but if you have another way to show a 3-card raise you will not need this.

1♥-1♠-3♣ in precision is normally played as a maximum with 5♥+5♣; my preference is for this to be 6♥+5♣ (less common, but you will get better results when it comes up).

That is a really good question Our 1H-1S-1NT is currently undefined , so I actually have 2 bids to use to show the 3 card spade support ..How would you suggest we play both 1H-1S -1NT and 1H-1S -2NT ? (why would you have 1NT show Diamonds - eg, why not clubs or why not just let 2C and 2D benatural after the 1S bid ?

[DavidKok]

shugart24, on 2024-June-16, 07:05, said:

That is a really good question Our 1H-1S-1NT is currently undefined , so I actually have 2 bids to use to show the 3 card spade support ..How would you suggest we play both 1H-1S -1NT and 1H-1S -2NT ? (why would you have 1NT show Diamonds - eg, why not clubs or why not just let 2C and 2D benatural after the 1S bid ?

Let's say we start with something simple and natural, in this context. Your 1♥ is 11-15, 5(+)♥, never 5M332. After 1♥-1♠ your rebids are:

• 1NT: ???
  
• 2♣: 4(+)♣
  
• 2♦: 4(+)♦
  
• 2♥: 6(+)♥
  
• 2♠: 4♠, minimum
  
• 2NT: ???
  
• 3♣: ??? (maybe 5♥5♣ maximum)
  
• 3♦: ??? (maybe 5♥5♦ maximum)
  
• 3♥: ??? (maybe 7♥ maximum)
  
• 3♠: 4(+)♠, maximum

Every hand has a rebid (as an unbalanced hand always has 5-4 or 6(+), and you can bid all side suits). Which hand types struggle here? Where do you need more definition?

[shugart24]

DavidKok, on 2024-June-16, 07:12, said:

Let's say we start with something simple and natural, in this context. Your 1♥ is 11-15, 5(+)♥, never 5M332. After 1♥-1♠ your rebids are:

• 1NT: ???
  
• 2♣: 4(+)♣
  
• 2♦: 4(+)♦
  
• 2♥: 6(+)♥
  
• 2♠: 4♠, minimum
  
• 2NT: ???
  
• 3♣: ??? (maybe 5♥5♣ maximum)
  
• 3♦: ??? (maybe 5♥5♦ maximum)
  
• 3♥: ??? (maybe 7♥ maximum)
  
• 3♠: 4(+)♠, maximum

Every hand has a rebid (as an unbalanced hand always has 5-4 or 6(+), and you can bid all side suits). Which hand types struggle here? Where do you need more definition?

We are working on documenting our 1H bid this weekend, and yes, what you have listed is what we do, As I am documenting for him, the 1H-1S -1NT or 2NT bids need clarity.

I also need clarity on 1H -1S -2C -2D (fast) or 1H -1S -2C -2NT (transfer)-3C - 3D (slow) but that's a thread possibly coming up ,,,Actually, I will post this other question shortly, so dont respond here

[DavidKok]

To be clear: I don't mean to suggest anything for the bids with question marks just yet. Rather I want you to consider which hand types you feel are treated poorly in that structure.
I want a bid for every hand, not a hand for every bid. Only start adding gadgets if you think your current setup fails to show certain hand types accurately. Personally I have some ideas on which hand types might wish for more bidding space, and how that could lead into a gadget on this start, but I think it is better if you look for the system cracks yourself.