[jillybean]

I am going over hands with a pair of new players, here is one of the boards we discussed.

"Get the kiddies off the street"
When I started to play this game , I heard this many times!! Pull trump. It was a rule I was told I should abide with.

---

Lead ♥K
Declarer Pulled Trump and went -1, most other pairs made their contract.
After the opening lead, if you stop, think and look at the hand you will see that you have 2 heart losers, 2 diamond losers and perhaps 1 club loser. Too many.

If you have followed the "rule" to pull trump, you will be down.

You must ruff 2 hearts in dummy before you pull trump.
Beware some of the "rules" you will hear are not always valid.

[smerriman]

I've never seen that rule given to beginners before.. "draw trumps unless there is a good reason not to", yes, but that's precisely the point. Maybe some forgot the latter half of that rule.

Were trumps 4-0? That seems to be the only way to go down even drawing trumps.

[johnu]

If trumps are 3-1 (or 2-2 in which case 2 hearts can always be trumped), then drawing trump and taking the club finesse seems like the best way to maximize tricks with no chance to go down after the ♥K lead.

If trumps are 4-0, it becomes an interesting play problem if East has 4 trumps, and very interesting if West has 4 trumps.

[P_Marlowe]

<snip>

[jillybean]

It appears that trump were 3-1, South pulled trump and then they are not sure how the play went.
I will try to obtain a HR.

"Pull Trump" was often a mantra I'd hear from other newer players, and one this player had picked up.

[P_Marlowe]

jillybean, on 2024-March-26, 07:17, said:

It appears that trump were 3-1, South pulled trump and then they are not sure how the play went.
I will try to obtain a HR.

"Pull Trump" was often a mantra I'd hear from other newer players, and one this player had picked up.

The reason behind the mantra is, that newer player quite often forget drawing trumps.
And they dont make plans, how to make their contract.
As you wrote, you need 2 trumps to ruff your heart looser, to achieve this you will use
trumps for communication (in effect drawing trumps), you detect the 3-1, and now have to change plan,
going for the club finesse.

As was pointed out, you could also go for establishing clubs, likely a better / safer plan, but if your
new players made either plan, before playing dummies first card, it would be great.

[mycroft]

The way I heard it that works best for me is "if there are trump out, *every trick* you're on lead, ask yourself, 'Is there a reason I am not pulling trumps yet?' If the answer isn't 'Yes, <this>', pull trumps now."

Sure, there are lots of reasons (including "I want to take the trump finesse, which means being in the other hand") - but if you can't *tell yourself* why you're not doing it, it may not be right, but it's so very rarely *wrong* that anything else you do might be wronger.

One I find N/B (and much higher!) have troubles with is "I don't have the high trump" is not - in and of itself - a reason not to pull them. How many times have you seen people lose the two low trumps to ruffs *and* the AKJ they were going to lose? Doesn't apply here, of course.

[jillybean]

Not pulling trump because you don't have the top trump and giving the ops low ruffs is of course a problem as is pulling the final outstanding High trump. This perhaps happens mostly when the number of trump are being counted but not the rank. There's so much to keep track of in this game!

[pescetom]

-- (coffee time)

[jillybean]

I'd guess what has happened here is, no plan, I don't really know how to make a plan so I will "get the kiddies off the street" and see what happens.

Perhaps a better plan would be;
ruff 2 hearts. Using trump to get back to hand
Discover trump split 3-1, pull last trump and use ♦ to get back to hand
Play ♣Q, if it holds =5, otherwise =4

[johnu]

jillybean, on 2024-March-26, 07:17, said:

It appears that trump were 3-1, South pulled trump and then they are not sure how the play went.
I will try to obtain a HR.

My guess is that they drew 3 rounds of trump and ruffed a heart. Trapped in dummy, they played a diamond to the ace, setting up 2 diamond losers, and took the losing club finesse, then losing 2 diamonds and the last heart.

[smerriman]

jillybean, on 2024-March-26, 14:19, said:

Perhaps a better plan would be;
ruff 2 hearts. Using trump to get back to hand
Discover trump split 3-1, pull last trump and use ♦ to get back to hand
Play ♣Q, if it holds =5, otherwise =4

The simplest plan is to realise that assuming you lose a trick to the club K, you then have 11 top tricks (barring a 5-1 club break) - 5 trumps, 4 clubs, and two aces. (You can count that as discarding 3 losers on the clubs if you want to think about losers.)

If trumps aren't 4-0, you'll also get a heart ruff at the end for 12 tricks, but don't need to take this early; it's only when trumps are 4-0 that you have some decisions to make.

[jillybean]

I now have the hand record. Here's the full hand, rotated from the Opening Post
The lead was a small♥, not the K.

One player made 6 for all the MP, others made 5 and 2 went -1

---

[pescetom]

Hard to see how they could fail to make 11 tricks if they pulled 3 rounds of trumps after the first trick.

I guess new players might misplay the clubs and keep hearts.

[ASC87]

 jillybean, on 2024-March-25, 17:01, said:

thanks
am going over hands with a pair of new players, here is one of the boards we discussed.

"Get the kiddies off the street"
When I started to play this game , I heard this many times!! Pull trump. It was a rule I was told I should abide with.

---

Lead ♥K
Declarer Pulled Trump and went -1, most other pairs made their contract.
After the opening lead, if you stop, think and look at the hand you will see that you have 2 heart losers, 2 diamond losers and perhaps 1 club loser. Too many.

If you have followed the "rule" to pull trump, you will be down.

You must ruff 2 hearts in dummy before you pull trump.
Beware some of the "rules" you will hear are not always valid.

[AL78]

pescetom, on 2024-March-29, 12:13, said:

Hard to see how they could fail to make 11 tricks if they pulled 3 rounds of trumps after the first trick.

I guess new players might misplay the clubs and keep hearts.

Draw trumps ending in dummy now I will take the club finesse. Oops I need to be in my hand, ah I have the diamond ace I'll use that to get back to hand. Run club queen, lose to king, defence cash two diamond tricks.

[pescetom]

 AL78, on 2024-April-21, 11:45, said:

Draw trumps ending in dummy now I will take the club finesse. Oops I need to be in my hand, ah I have the diamond ace I'll use that to get back to hand. Run club queen, lose to king, defence cash two diamond tricks.

I guess so, although even our eternal beginners are not quite that bad. If you really must end up in dummy no big deal, you can run a small club to the Q without blowing diamonds. It's quite unlikely to cost an overtrick and in any case it's the best you can do now.

[AL78]

pescetom, on 2024-April-22, 03:21, said:

I guess so, although even our eternal beginners are not quite that bad.

---

Yesterday evening at my club a beginner playing South in 5♦ got a low spade lead, she played the queen and it held so discarded two hearts on the spade honors. She still managed to go one down, the diamonds were 4-0 and the hand with four was semi-balanced so two diamond losers should have been the limit by playing diamonds from the top. Beginners do all sorts of things that to us are madness but that is what being a beginner is like.

[johnu]

AL78, on 2024-April-21, 11:45, said:

Draw trumps ending in dummy now I will take the club finesse. Oops I need to be in my hand, ah I have the diamond ace I'll use that to get back to hand. Run club queen, lose to king, defence cash two diamond tricks.

That's still making 4 which nobody actually did. See my post #11 for how to go down in 4♠

[johnu]

AL78, on 2024-April-23, 16:03, said:

---

Yesterday evening at my club a beginner playing South in 5♦ got a low spade lead, she played the queen and it held so discarded two hearts on the spade honors. She still managed to go one down, the diamonds were 4-0 and the hand with four was semi-balanced so two diamond losers should have been the limit by playing diamonds from the top. Beginners do all sorts of things that to us are madness but that is what being a beginner is like.

Even after cashing an extra spade at trick 2, it's still hard to see going down in 5♦.