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gerber ACBL 2/1

#1 User is offline   dickiegera 

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Posted 2022-November-10, 16:51

Partnerships plays 4 clubs is always gerber.

Bidding [with oppoents not bidding] goes 1 spade 4 clubs [gerber]

Is this alertable?


Thank you
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#2 User is offline   smerriman 

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Posted 2022-November-10, 17:37

Yes. The ACBL document says to alert all artificial bids except ones listed.

It lists this as non-alertable:

Quote

A 4C bid asking for aces or keycards directly over a No Trump bid or in an auction that started with an Opening No Trump Sequence.

But that's not the case here.
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#3 User is offline   mycroft 

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Posted 2022-November-10, 19:30

Yes, this is true (and has "always" been true. Many who play "4 is always Gerber" didn't know that before, and don't know it now).

Note that this one (1-4) is an immediate Alert.

Also note that every other Alertable Gerber auction is a Delayed Alert - "higher than 3NT, starting with Opener's Rebid". But since all responses to Ace-Asking auctions are (Delayed) Alertable (even the ones where the asking bid itself is not - check it!) as are control cuebids, any time you have a slam-try auction, you should be explaining at the end of the auction anyway.
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#4 User is offline   pescetom 

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Posted 2022-November-11, 03:09

Do they also play that a 4 opening is Gerber? I sorely hope that will be an immediate Alert too.
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#5 User is offline   mycroft 

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Posted 2022-November-11, 12:17

I have seen some people for whom 4 opening is Gerber. And yes, it's an immediate Alert. And now that Namyats is an announcement, it's even an useful Alert. But even the "4 is always Gerber" people tend to play that as a minor preempt, so I didn't mention it.

But I did miss one (that I did see at the table - okay, I was called as the director to this auction): (3)-4 overcall Gerber. It then went "(p)-4-all pass, and when dummy hit with a strong hand, 6 hearts and 2 clubs, the director was called. "what was 4?" "One ace." "what was 4?" "Gerber." "You know that's Alertable, right?" "..."
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#6 User is offline   pescetom 

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Posted 2022-November-11, 13:35

View Postmycroft, on 2022-November-11, 12:17, said:

I have seen some people for whom 4 opening is Gerber. And yes, it's an immediate Alert. And now that Namyats is an announcement, it's even an useful Alert. But even the "4 is always Gerber" people tend to play that as a minor preempt, so I didn't mention it.

But I did miss one (that I did see at the table - okay, I was called as the director to this auction): (3)-4 overcall Gerber. It then went "(p)-4-all pass, and when dummy hit with a strong hand, 6 hearts and 2 clubs, the director was called. "what was 4?" "One ace." "what was 4?" "Gerber." "You know that's Alertable, right?" "..."


I'm already struggling with Namyats as an announcement ("Strong hearts"? Or "Namyats" which they are they supposed to know?), but it could just be resignment after 2NT 3NT 6NT :)
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#7 User is offline   mycroft 

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Posted 2022-November-11, 15:02

It's a transfer, so the new ACBL Alert Procedures require a 4 Namyats opening to be announced "Hearts". (in a very odd quirk in the rules, a 4 opening by a pair that play Namyats is Alerted ("A Natural Preemptive bid if there is a second way to show the same suit at the same level.") even if the exact same agreement by a pair not playing Namyats is not. Understandable, but I bet 10% of the people that play this know to do it, and 2% of the people Alerted understand why.)
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#8 User is offline   pescetom 

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Posted 2022-November-14, 16:23

View Postmycroft, on 2022-November-11, 15:02, said:

It's a transfer, so the new ACBL Alert Procedures require a 4 Namyats opening to be announced "Hearts". (in a very odd quirk in the rules, a 4 opening by a pair that play Namyats is Alerted ("A Natural Preemptive bid if there is a second way to show the same suit at the same level.") even if the exact same agreement by a pair not playing Namyats is not. Understandable, but I bet 10% of the people that play this know to do it, and 2% of the people Alerted understand why.)


Thanks.
I'm underwhelmed by the announcement of "Hearts", which seems to me reticent and suggesting that this is equivalent to and substitutes a natural 4.
OTOH I do approve the explicit requirement to alert a corresponding 4 opening (although it would already be implicit in WBF world).
Is there a similar requirement for 1NT - 2; 2 to be alerted when super-accepts are played?
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#9 User is offline   Gilithin 

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Posted 2023-April-26, 22:06

View Postmycroft, on 2022-November-11, 15:02, said:

It's a transfer, so the new ACBL Alert Procedures require a 4 Namyats opening to be announced "Hearts". (in a very odd quirk in the rules, a 4 opening by a pair that play Namyats is Alerted ("A Natural Preemptive bid if there is a second way to show the same suit at the same level.") even if the exact same agreement by a pair not playing Namyats is not. Understandable, but I bet 10% of the people that play this know to do it, and 2% of the people Alerted understand why.)

Does this mean that natural 4m openings need to be alerted by any pair that uses a Gambling 3NT?
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#10 User is offline   mycroft 

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Posted 2023-April-27, 13:01

That's a very good question and one that I have never got an answer I can completely generalize to. I think the answer is "no" - even though you're always going to *get to* 4m, 3NT is at the 3 level.

Personally, I think it should be. But I don't read the Alert Procedures as saying it is.
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#11 User is offline   pescetom 

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Posted 2023-April-27, 13:10

View Postpescetom, on 2022-November-14, 16:23, said:

Is there a similar requirement for 1NT - 2; 2 to be alerted when super-accepts are played?


View PostGilithin, on 2023-April-26, 22:06, said:

Does this mean that natural 4m openings need to be alerted by any pair that uses a Gambling 3NT?

For me they should be, just like the situation above (which is cheerfully ignored by my RA and it seems so far all others).
Even on BBO or behind screens I don't see many players alerting these things when they could.
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#12 User is offline   sanst 

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Posted 2023-April-28, 00:59

View Postpescetom, on 2023-April-27, 13:10, said:

For me they should be, just like the situation above (which is cheerfully ignored by my RA and it seems so far all others).
Even on BBO or behind screens I don't see many players alerting these things when they could.

If too many bids have to be alerted, it looses its purpose. In Holland 1 has to be alerted if the call can be made with 2. Everybody alerts, nobody asks, which can be pretty stupid if the pair has a strong club system or plays 1 as 4+. Announcing is unknown here, which makes things worse.
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#13 User is offline   pescetom 

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Posted 2023-April-28, 05:47

View Postsanst, on 2023-April-28, 00:59, said:

If too many bids have to be alerted, it looses its purpose. In Holland 1 has to be alerted if the call can be made with 2. Everybody alerts, nobody asks, which can be pretty stupid if the pair has a strong club system or plays 1 as 4+. Announcing is unknown here, which makes things worse.

Sure, it's a delicate balance to avoid too many alerts, but the approach has to be consistent: it makes no sense that one must alert a superaccept but not an a transfer completion that denies superaccept values. As for opening bids, announcements work well there as you suggest.
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#14 User is offline   barmar 

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Posted 2023-April-28, 17:03

View Postsanst, on 2023-April-28, 00:59, said:

If too many bids have to be alerted, it looses its purpose. In Holland 1 has to be alerted if the call can be made with 2. Everybody alerts, nobody asks, which can be pretty stupid if the pair has a strong club system or plays 1 as 4+. Announcing is unknown here, which makes things worse.

That's precisely the reason why ACBL introduced announcements. And before that, they experimented with "Special Alert", but the players didn't like it.

#15 User is offline   jillybean 

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Posted 2023-April-28, 17:36

View Postbarmar, on 2023-April-28, 17:03, said:

That's precisely the reason why ACBL introduced announcements. And before that, they experimented with "Special Alert", but the players didn't like it.


This only works of course when players make the announcement, and some don't.
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#16 User is offline   barmar 

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Posted 2023-May-02, 10:46

View Postjillybean, on 2023-April-28, 17:36, said:

This only works of course when players make the announcement, and some don't.

No solution is perfect, but announcements have worked out pretty well in ACBL. The switch from "Special Alert" (which hardly anyone did properly) to announcements went pretty smoothly. Every few years rumors go around that the announcement for 15-17 NT is no longer needed, but I've rarely encountered tournament players with this misunderstanding, I think it mostly happens with club players.

#17 User is offline   jillybean 

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Posted 2023-May-02, 11:51

View Postbarmar, on 2023-May-02, 10:46, said:

No solution is perfect, but announcements have worked out pretty well in ACBL. The switch from "Special Alert" (which hardly anyone did properly) to announcements went pretty smoothly. Every few years rumors go around that the announcement for 15-17 NT is no longer needed, but I've rarely encountered tournament players with this misunderstanding, I think it mostly happens with club players.

Mostly in club games perhaps but failure to announce/alert happens at all levels of this game.
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#18 User is offline   mycroft 

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Posted 2023-May-03, 10:19

  • Moving from Announcements to "failure to ...Alert" is quite a jump. There are - legitimate - issues with people not Announcing (or not announcing correctly, or announcing things that are Alerts), but they're actually simple, and almost everybody has a handle on it. The rest of the Alert Procedure in the ACBL is complicated, for a legitimate reason, and "not Alerting correctly sometimes" is a consequence the ACBL has decided to have.

    I played this weekend, and had two situations where Alertability of (reasonable, but rare) agreements were questioned, and the answer surprised both me and the TD (in fact, in one case, we called the TD because we failed to Alert the call, only to find that it wasn't Alertable). It's gonna happen, and as a result, "two minutes for cross-checking misAlerting" isn't.
  • "Every few years"? At least in my world, "every spring and fall, when the snowbirds come back from Arizona/Florida, or when they 'come back' from Nova Scotia and Arizona". *Somebody* says it, and *lots of people* believe it, because it's what they want - but G-d help you if you muffle your "12-14" even once, even though you've played it with this partner for 15 years, and the person has played against you at least 4 times a year for those same 15 years. (Yes, it's important, and it's important *for the NT opener's side*, not for your opponents; I know they don't believe me. Almost wish I could feel allowed to play the [-] defence against it deliberately, rather than leave it to all the pairs who play it by accident).
  • My favourite announcement issue is the other pair on my "weak NT team", who still play 2-way (the most common of the "Special Alerts", back in the day). 1NT "12-14"-p-2-<stare>. I think the best solution to this would be to extend Announcements to all 2-level responses to NT, but that will cause its own problems from the "you just use the Alerts to keep partner on track" brigade.

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#19 User is offline   barmar 

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Posted 2023-May-17, 09:40

My favorite recollection is nearly 30 years ago, when ACBL had just changed negative doubles to be non-alertable. I went to an NABC, and played in something with one of by rubber bridge cronies, and we agreed to play our RB system; I think the only artificial bids were takeout doubles, Stayman, and Blackwood. This meant we could make penalty doubles of overcalls. We alerted these (as required by the new regulation), the opponent would point out that the double is no longer alertable, and we'd inform them that our double is indeed alertable.

#20 User is offline   mycroft 

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Posted 2023-May-17, 11:35

heh, same year, same story, different game:

1NT ("good 11-14", and didn't that help our score over December when it was "Alert")-p-2 ("Alert". "You don't Alert transfers any more, you just say 'Transfer'." "Thank you. Alert.")

If they still didn't get it, and went on the "just say 'Transfer'" kick again, we let them off the hook and said "it's not a transfer."(</Arnie>) That almost always got a "oh, then what is it?" :-)
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