weakish 5 opening
#1
Posted 2022-July-04, 10:19
We have traditional but fairly effective defences over a weak 2 opening (disciplined suit and NT overcalls, Lebensohl), but seem just as vulnerable as the rest of the field to this gambit, which is of course opening many hands where others would pass, as well as pre-empting and transmitting precise information. I also have a feeling that the chances we have game are higher than over a 6-card opening, although I haven't simulated that and it may just be coincidence.
Probably we should tweak our defences to better fit the challenge, but how? Maybe someone is playing (or used to encountering) this scheme or something similar (I guess Muiderberg is not that different, even if it promises a side minor and I imagine a wider range). In any case expert comment is appreciated as always.
#2
Posted 2022-July-04, 10:30
#3
Posted 2022-July-04, 14:14
Cyberyeti, on 2022-July-04, 10:30, said:
They have no convention card and it's not easy to extract information from them, although they obey alert regulations and are polite. From what I see, their 2 opening does not guarantee a second suit nor deny one (except perhaps the other major), and that is what 2NT is nominally about. I think it denies 6 card in majors, they put those (or at least some) through multi. They have opened both weak 9 points and strong 11 points, never outside numeric range (nor has a 1 level ever been less than 12).
#4
Posted 2022-July-04, 14:30
I would play a standard defence against this (double is takeout, bidding a suit is 5(+) and a sound opening, 2NT is 16-19 balanced with their suit stopped, (Transfer) Lebensohl is on after doubling, use the cues and jumps the same way you would over a natural weak two) but when in doubt favour passing a bit more often. The two-bids of Fantunes are a double-edged sword, preempting partner more often than traditional weak two's. 2X-a.p. is a terrible result for opener if the opponents really have their passes. So when in doubt, take the conservative action.
As an aside, it is quite amusing to play 2♣ as 'somewhat weak with clubs' but 2♦ as multi. I can't figure out what the motivation is for playing it this way around instead of flipping it.
#5
Posted 2022-July-04, 14:50
DavidKok, on 2022-July-04, 14:30, said:
Yes, Fantunes-style. Which is a more structured system than EHAA where a EHAA two-bid shows 6-12 high card points, and a five card or longer suit. There is no restriction on suit quality (xxxxx and AKQJxxxx are accepted!).
A defense to EHAA two bids, I guess, are even more difficult to counter.
#6
Posted 2022-July-04, 15:02
DavidKok, on 2022-July-04, 14:30, said:
I would play a standard defence against this (double is takeout, bidding a suit is 5(+) and a sound opening, 2NT is 16-19 balanced with their suit stopped, (Transfer) Lebensohl is on after doubling, use the cues and jumps the same way you would over a natural weak two) but when in doubt favour passing a bit more often. The two-bids of Fantunes are a double-edged sword, preempting partner more often than traditional weak two's. 2X-a.p. is a terrible result for opener if the opponents really have their passes. So when in doubt, take the conservative action.
Thanks. Yes I can see that conservative passes might extract the best result, but also that weakening 2NT a bit might be a good idea.
DavidKok, on 2022-July-04, 14:30, said:
Probably part of the motivation is that almost everyone here plays fairly heavy 2/1 openings with 1♣ 2+ and 1♦ 4+ (occasionally 5+).
The other day they opened their light 5 card 2♣ and cheerfully sacrificed over our 4♠, which made at other tables.
#7
Posted 2022-July-04, 15:39
LBengtsson, on 2022-July-04, 14:50, said:
A defense to EHAA two bids, I guess, are even more difficult to counter.
pescetom, on 2022-July-04, 15:02, said:
#8
Posted 2022-July-04, 15:58
DavidKok, on 2022-July-04, 15:39, said:
We usually play 17(16)-19, but the local style of preempting is conservative, at times perversely so (hands I would open 1 level).
I take your point.
#9
Posted 2022-July-05, 09:06
In OP, did you mean 2♦/2M? It reads oddly (or I want to know what 2♦ is in the system). I'd also want to know what 1x was, and how strong the "strong club" was. Because if there's overlap between 1M and 2M, I'd want to understand that; if there isn't, I'd want to have that solid in my mind when competing.
(Last time I played anything like this, it was "five rule club" that was told "we require 5 and 5 for our two-bids in this club", so we switched the 2M to be this to help the clunky 8-14 4+ 1M openers. I wouldn't say it was a good system - but it was fun).
* EDIT: did the sim. If you trust my scripting, for "about 50%" read "about 65%". Note that that's based on "any hand in range with 5+ in a valid suit is opened", which for EHAA overcounts some hands (most 10-12, 5m332s are opened 1NT) and for OP's opponents makes some serious assumptions (they won't pass a 9HCP with 9xxxx, they don't downgrade 5332s, they don't bid something else on some hands, they don't upgrade KQJxxx and an 11 count,...)
#10
Posted 2022-July-05, 15:08
mycroft, on 2022-July-05, 09:06, said:
In OP, did you mean 2♦/2M? It reads oddly (or I want to know what 2♦ is in the system). I'd also want to know what 1x was, and how strong the "strong club" was. Because if there's overlap between 1M and 2M, I'd want to understand that; if there isn't, I'd want to have that solid in my mind when competing.
The OP intentionally omitted 2♦ because they play that as some kind of Multi, which certainly includes some or all weak 6 card majors and quite probably 5+ diamonds 9-11 too.
1♣ seems to be any hand 16+ except 20+ balanced, 1♦ can only guess, 1M 12-15 4+ cards does not exclude longer minor, 1N 12-14 balanced.
#11
Posted 2022-July-06, 09:03
Unless their 1♣ is Polish-like, I don't know what they bid with A94 KQ8 6 KQT842, though. 1♦? If it's that ambiguous, it's probably worth looking at defending that call, too.
But you can see why these bids - especially 2♣/M - would ping the "why are they doing this? What does the rest of the system look like?" and wonder if I need to worry about defending against that.
But yeah, a large majority of the time (I'd forgotten about the 3 and 4 bids when I did the previous, because EHAA is weird; but that likely takes some of the 7+card suits out of the 2 bid) it's a 5-card suit, maybe to the point where you should play it in LOTT calculations as 5 until you find otherwise.