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Simple Auction to 5NT

Poll: Simple Auction to 5NT (12 member(s) have cast votes)

What does 5NT mean in this auction: 2NT-3C-3H-4D-4NT-5NT?

  1. Invitational to 6NT (non-forcing) (3 votes [25.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 25.00%

  2. Invitational to 7NT (forcing to slam) (1 votes [8.33%])

    Percentage of vote: 8.33%

  3. Pick a slam at the six level (8 votes [66.67%])

    Percentage of vote: 66.67%

  4. "Grand slam force" in diamonds (0 votes [0.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.00%

  5. Some other meaning (0 votes [0.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.00%

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#1 User is offline   awm 

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Posted 2022-June-05, 00:35

What does 5NT mean in the following auction (opponents passing):

2NT - 3 (stayman)
3 - 4 (natural, slam-interest)
4NT (doesn't like diamonds) - 5NT

It seemed like several different meanings were possible here!
Adam W. Meyerson
a.k.a. Appeal Without Merit
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#2 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2022-June-05, 01:17

What are the alternatives ? is there any other way of bidding diamonds ? what is 2N-3-3-3 ? does the use of stayman suggest 4 spades too ?

For us, the equivalent auction (2N-3(SI with one or both minors)-3N-4-4N-5N) would be invite to 6N I think
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#3 User is offline   pescetom 

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Posted 2022-June-05, 04:17

I would expect Pick a slam at 6 level, the quantitative alternatives don't seem to make much sense when opener knows less about responder than vice versa and Josephine seems unlikely if she went through Stayman rather than 3 or whatever.

My doubt is more whether hearts should be an option rather than just diamonds and NT, but I would expect not (unless 3 showed 5=cards and 4 implies at least tolerance for hearts).
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#4 User is offline   akwoo 

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Posted 2022-June-05, 11:30

I voted for pick-a-slam.

I don't think pescetom's questions matter, because I play "pick-a-slam" as cooperative "figure out our best slam", which means opener simply bids the lowest suit in which they have a slam-possible holding in the context of the bidding so far. So:

1) 6C with 5 clubs (partner could have 3)
2) If not (1), then 6D with 3 diamonds, or maybe with Qx or better in diamonds and Kx or Ax in spades (so you have a ruffing value in the 5-2 fit)
3) If not (1) or (2), then 6H with 5 hearts, or 4 good hearts and precisely Axx in clubs (so you want to play the Moysian - if partner has 3 hearts they have precisely 4351 shape)
4) If not (1) or (2) or (3), 6S with 3 good spades and Ax or Kx in diamonds (so you might want to play that Moysian)
5) If not any of the above, 6N.

Partner will pass if they have values in the suit you bid, or keep bidding their lowest viable suit if they don't.
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#5 User is offline   mikeh 

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Posted 2022-June-05, 19:57

Pick a slam

Look at your hand, recall the auction, and place the contract

However, if one bids 6D and partner then bids 6N, that changes everything and invites 7.

Thats the only way I know of having ones cake (find the best small slam) and also invite grand. I think it makes sense if we assume that 6D will show Hx.with Hxx wed not have bid 4N. So if partner has say AKJxxx in diamonds, seeing 6D allows him to count 6 winners. Also, obviously, needs sufficient hcp to know were not likely off an ace.

KQx xx AKJxxx Qxx. Partner may have AJx AKQx xx AKxxwe play 6Nor Kxx AKJx Qx AKxx and we play 7N

Ok, we can be off an ace with a combined 36 count, but Id take my chances.opener should pass 6N with a soft hand
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#6 User is offline   DavidKok 

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Posted 2022-June-06, 12:58

View Postmikeh, on 2022-June-05, 19:57, said:

KQx xx AKJxxx Qxx.
This hand presumably would not start with Stayman. I think responder shows exactly 4 spades and longer diamonds with a slam-going hand, and 5NT asks to pick between 6 and 6NT. To me it seems like many different meanings are excluded, based on the following:
  • Partner has asked for a major suit, but didn't like hearts.
  • Partner has shown diamond length.
  • Partner bids on opposite a sign-off.
  • The contract is still uncertain after 4NT (so partner does not have some run-of-the-mill 4=1=5=3 13-count, which would bid 6NT, nor a strong 4=1=6=2 with good diamonds, which would bid 6).
Personally I also have ways to first transfer to diamonds, then investigate a spade fit after with slam-going hands. If this partnership had that option a big disparity between diamonds and spades is also ruled out. I think responder has got a hand with 4 spades and 6 somewhat soft diamonds, and is inquiring about the quality of the stops in the rounded suits for 6NT.

With a hand that would be interested in 7, couldn't responder find some club or heart bid instead to preserve space?
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#7 User is offline   mikeh 

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Posted 2022-June-06, 13:50

I agree. I was making up a hand consistent with 5N then 6N over 6D being an invitation to grand and forgot the stayman bid. Some players have to go through stayman in order to force in a minor but most pairs and, Id guess, all expert pairs would promise spades here

But just make it 4=1=6=2, or 4=2=6=1
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#8 User is offline   Gilithin 

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Posted 2022-June-19, 04:28

View Postmikeh, on 2022-June-06, 13:50, said:

But just make it 4=1=6=2, or 4=2=6=1

Surely 4360 or even 4351 is more likely than 4162 or 4261? Do we not want partner to show us their 5 card heart suit if they have it? Or do you see that hand bidding 5 over 4NT?

With a good player I would expect pick a slam too; but with a typical social player, I would wager that 8 or 9 times out of 10 this is a quantitative invite to 6.
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#9 User is offline   bluenikki 

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Posted 2022-June-19, 07:23

View Postpescetom, on 2022-June-05, 04:17, said:

I would expect Pick a slam at 6 level, the quantitative alternatives don't seem to make much sense when opener knows less about responder than vice versa and Josephine seems unlikely if she went through Stayman rather than 3 or whatever.

My doubt is more whether hearts should be an option rather than just diamonds and NT, but I would expect not (unless 3 showed 5=cards and 4 implies at least tolerance for hearts).

It is not necessary for 3 to have *shown* 5 for hearts to be a live possibility. Unless, 4 over 4 would have denied slam-suitable diamond support.
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#10 User is offline   pescetom 

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Posted 2022-June-19, 09:58

View Postbluenikki, on 2022-June-19, 07:23, said:

It is not necessary for 3 to have *shown* 5 for hearts to be a live possibility. Unless, 4 over 4 would have denied slam-suitable diamond support.

Well if the agreement is that 3♡ = 4+ hearts without denying 4 spades and a 4◇ response = natural with slam interest (quite reasonable, I agree) I would expect the other responses to be 3♤ = artificial hearts fit with slam interest, 3nt = 4 card spades, 4♡ = sign off, or similar. So after 4◇, 4NT = natural NF without fit (as OP says) and 4♡ = 5 cards NF (as seems logical), I struggle to see how a hearts slam can be in the picture after 4NT.
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