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Question about KK Relay's Denial Cue Bidding

#21 User is offline   enigmisto 

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Posted 2022-February-02, 01:45

View PostCascade, on 2022-February-01, 02:55, said:

Why not just list the possibilities.

Say partner has shown three controls (A=2 and K=1) and then goes four steps in the first denial cue-bid. Say for this example partner is 4=3=3=3. Just explain A K Q and no Q or K A Q and no Q or K K K and no Q. On the second round if partner goes two steps then the first two options are the same Q and no Q and the third option above leads to Q and no Q.

"sAQ hK no hQ, sKQ hA no hQ, or sK hK dK no sQ" isn't too onerous to type.

On the second round it is a little more complex: "With sA or hA then dQ no cQ OR with no ace hQ no dQ".


Maybe. But if you have 4 controls, the scenarios before skipping ahead to Queens are AA or AKK or KAK or KKA or KKKK. Seems like it gets awkward quickly. And if you aren't taking a shortcut scan based on your holdings, I think it could be hard to even remember that you need to enumerate all the possibilities for the opponent, because maybe you could have taken a shortcut with different holdings.
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#22 User is offline   mycroft 

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Posted 2022-February-02, 09:08

It is your responsibility, as the player of the system, to be able to explain it in a way the opponents can understand. If you can not do so, RAs may not allow you to play that part of your system.

Yes, it gets tough after a bit. OTOH, the more controls you have, the less likely you will be able to show them all in one shot to zoom; also less likely that you will know that partner can tell that you've shown them all and therefore you are zooming. So it sort of balances out.

I know you started by asking how to do this. I'm lauding your efforts to meet your disclosure requirements.

But you can't go off the end into "shows controls, I'll be able to tell you which ones before dummy comes down, even though I know now because of the cards in my hand." (unless that's sufficient for the opponents, because "cuebidding"). You also can't hide what cards allowed you to determine which of the options partner was taking (and assumed you'd be able to differentiate).

As a totally different example, I do in fact "not fully describe" my 2 Keri response to 1NT. Because "fully describe" the 14 options takes 5 lines of text. But "wants to play 2, or various INV+ hands" (that I will usually be able to work out next round) is usually sufficient for now - they know that I'm going to bid 2, partner might pass it, and if she doesn't (most of the time), we are GI or better. Of course, I *can* describe it if people actually want, though.
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#23 User is offline   Cascade 

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Posted 2022-February-04, 03:50

View Postenigmisto, on 2022-February-02, 01:45, said:

Maybe. But if you have 4 controls, the scenarios before skipping ahead to Queens are AA or AKK or KAK or KKA or KKKK. Seems like it gets awkward quickly. And if you aren't taking a shortcut scan based on your holdings, I think it could be hard to even remember that you need to enumerate all the possibilities for the opponent, because maybe you could have taken a shortcut with different holdings.


Let me try. KK stop with none or both ace and king and pass with either ace or king. They don't scan the fourth suit (in a balanced hand) and they skip back to the first suit to scan for queens as soon as all aces and kings have been shown.

I dealt some 4333 hands with four controls. The ambiguities do not seem difficult to deal with by listing the cases.

1. AK5.KT6.J432.764

First ask: stop first step - no A or K or both
Second ask: stop first step - no A or K or both
Third ask: stop second step - A or K and no Q

2. JT6.AT98.A53.974

First ask: Second step - A or K, no A or K or both
Second ask: Second step - A or K, no Q OR if AK then Q no Q
Third ask: First step - if AK then no Q otherwise noQ

3. K32.JT9.A96.KQT4

First ask: third step - A or K, A or K, no A or K
Second ask: second step - Q no Q
no ambiguity here.

4. T852.AT9.A65.752

First ask: first step - AK or neither
Second ask: third step - if no AK then A or K and A or K no Q otherwise A or K and Q and no Q
Third ask: first step - if no AK then no Q otherwise no Q

5. 6542.QT8.AT3.AT4

First ask: first step - no AK or both
Second ask: first step - no AK or both
Third ask: second step - A or K no Q

6. KJ7.K84.6532.A72

First ask: first step - no A or K or both
Second ask: third step - A or K and either a/ if no AK then A or K and no Q or b/ if AK then Q and no Q
Third ask: first step - no Q or no Q dependent on AK as above.

I had more examples but this does not seem difficult.
Wayne Burrows

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#24 User is offline   straube 

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Posted 2022-February-04, 09:27

Usually when I have played against experienced pairs, they allow me a relay auction and then ask about the auction before their lead. I'm not arguing that opponents aren't entitled to full explanation during the course of the bidding (they are) or that having that full explanation bid-by-bid can't be useful to them (for example wanting to double for a lead or penalty), but it really can slow down the game and also be distracting to the pair that is trying to have this auction. There isn't a lot of sense (not that there is zero sense) listing all sorts of possibilities that partner may have when I later can explain more precisely what partner has. Maybe not intended as being unsportsmanlike, but it reminds me of talking to a golfer mid-swing. Maybe other relayers aren't so affected, but I can be.
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#25 User is offline   mycroft 

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Posted 2022-February-04, 10:34

I agree with you straube, and I actually encourage players to do exactly that - and I lean on the relay pairs to not explain every bid when the "so, what did your auction show?" hits before the opening lead, but do what you want to do: "I've shown a strong hand, and all my further calls are asking for more information. Partner has shown 1-5-3-4, and 4 AK controls, and..." I also encourage (especially newer) players to do this because a significant percentage of the people they play against that Alert Every Bid, bid a lot better when the opponents ask about each call. No Idea Why.

Yes, the people like you, and my Precision pair, who do know their system well enough, and for whom "don't ask until the end of the auction" is going to be net plus, get to go net plus. But it will still also be net plus for the other pairs, who don't have to think through "hearts and diamonds and longer diamonds and low shortage and..."

Of course, there was the one (very good) pair who was Not Happy when I started with "this sequence to 2NT showed..." "What did 2 mean" "bid 2 so I can describe my hand." "and what happens if he doesn't bid 2?" "I don't know - he's walking home?" "so, it's forced." "Yes. This sequence, 2 then 2NT, shows..." But they're better at understanding "so what if you broke the relay here" and and...

However, the problem raised in this thread is that even at the end of the auction, there will still be two or more threads it "could be", and I'm expected to know which one it is *based on the cards I hold*. Which the opponents are not entitled to. They are, however, entitled to know what the options are, so that when they see dummy, they can also work out which cards I hold that allowed me to disambiguate in the auction. And that becomes very difficult.
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#26 User is offline   Cascade 

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Posted 2022-February-05, 04:52

View Postmycroft, on 2022-February-04, 10:34, said:

However, the problem raised in this thread is that even at the end of the auction, there will still be two or more threads it "could be", and I'm expected to know which one it is *based on the cards I hold*. Which the opponents are not entitled to. They are, however, entitled to know what the options are, so that when they see dummy, they can also work out which cards I hold that allowed me to disambiguate in the auction. And that becomes very difficult.


Occasionally, one or both opponents may know what partner has before the relayer knows.
Wayne Burrows

I believe that the USA currently hold only the World Championship For People Who Still Bid Like Your Auntie Gladys - dburn
dunno how to play 4 card majors - JLOGIC
True but I know Standard American and what better reason could I have for playing Precision? - Hideous Hog
Bidding is an estimation of probabilities SJ Simon

#27 User is offline   Bad_Wolf 

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Posted 2022-February-05, 16:20

I only very occasionally play relay these days and of course it is a pain if the opps ask about every bid, but there is a flip side. Once playing a relay pair RHO showed balanced no major then 2353 then LHO signed off in 3NT. It was obvious to me, based partly on feel/tempo, that LHO had 5 spades. Sure enough he did and pard lead one. Now everyone says that "well you relay an extra round to hide this" and so on, which is true in theory but not so much in practice, especially if there is any time pressure. Now I would have liked to ask for clarification of each bid of course, but of course I couldn't.
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#28 User is offline   akwoo 

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Posted 2022-February-06, 02:34

And then there was that round (this really happened!) where on both boards, relayer ended up as dummy, so we knew pretty much exactly what declarer had. Of course we had to try to take full advantage as defenders. We did not finish that round anywhere close to on time.
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#29 User is offline   Nirmalya 

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Posted 2022-December-19, 21:42

As a learner of KK Relay (Just started after reading the book) I am not so much worried about alerts and explanation.
However I have some basic questions to clear my doubt. I am sure many of you here can help me.
Take this example hand
AK10xx
Jxx
xxx
xx

QJxx
-
AKJ10
AKJ104

Asker starts DCB after resolving the shape and finding out three controls with partner. Partner stops at first step and again stops at first step in response to the second ask.
How can asker find out now, whether AK is missing or not?
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#30 User is offline   dokoko 

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Posted 2022-December-21, 13:29

View Postenigmisto, on 2022-January-28, 05:32, said:

The KK Relay book describes a series of shortcuts when doing Denial Cue Bidding. For example, after you've communicated the Aces and Kings in your hand, you skip any remaining suits and begin scanning the Queens. The assumption is that your partner can infer all your Aces and Kings from their own hand and your control point total, so no need to continue.

How are you supposed to alert these bids in a game?


I think a practical solution would be to explain the agreement during the bidding, eg.
one of:
- A+K, no Q
- K+A, no Q
- K+K, no K (hence K)
(if opp accepts the explanation could be reduced to "showing where his controls are - details later")

and explaining the cards actually shown when the bidding is over (for the opening lead).

I am no law expert and I don't practice relay systems but this seems to be a practical solution where everyone should be happy. If at the table both sides don't agree on the correct disclosure process, call the director and follow his instructions.

I don't think it would be fair to hide information available to the asker from the opening leader, but I can't imagine a situation where the precise information would be needed by the opponents during the auction.
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#31 User is offline   dokoko 

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Posted 2022-December-21, 13:45

View PostNirmalya, on 2022-December-19, 21:42, said:

As a learner of KK Relay (Just started after reading the book) I am not so much worried about alerts and explanation.
However I have some basic questions to clear my doubt. I am sure many of you here can help me.
Take this example hand
AK10xx
Jxx
xxx
xx

QJxx
-
AKJ10
AKJ104

Asker starts DCB after resolving the shape and finding out three controls with partner. Partner stops at first step and again stops at first step in response to the second ask.
How can asker find out now, whether AK is missing or not?


I have not read the book, so what I am going to say is just my guess.

I think with your example hand you need some kind of keycard asking bid (or some kind of exclusion or shortness bid by relayer). In general it is assumed that a hand open in two suits cannot be interested in slam but if short in one of those suits there has to be a solution.
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#32 User is offline   steve2005 

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Posted 2023-June-05, 07:59

The memory load for KK relay is significantly lower than other symmetric relay systems. I picked up in 2 days. Others i was never able to remember.
Highly recommend despite it being "non-optimal"
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#33 User is offline   foobar 

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Posted 2023-June-05, 11:25

View Poststeve2005, on 2023-June-05, 07:59, said:

The memory load for KK relay is significantly lower than other symmetric relay systems. I picked up in 2 days. Others i was never able to remember.
Highly recommend despite it being "non-optimal"

I don't recall the specifics right now, but my recollection from reading it a year+ ago is that it was ~symmetric relay with the short-legged, long legged, single suited with H/M/L shortness. Was there a particular tweak that helped with the mnemonic ease vis-a-vis other symmetric schemes?
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