BBO Discussion Forums: We missed a good diamond fit, who's fault? - BBO Discussion Forums

Jump to content

  • 2 Pages +
  • 1
  • 2
  • You cannot start a new topic
  • You cannot reply to this topic

We missed a good diamond fit, who's fault?

#1 User is offline   mikl_plkcc 

  • PipPipPipPip
  • Group: Full Members
  • Posts: 321
  • Joined: 2008-November-20
  • Gender:Male
  • Interests:sailing, bridge

Posted 2021-October-21, 15:52



We got a bottom letting their 2 made because everyone else played in .

We use Standard American so 1 suggests 4 s with the exception of 4=4=3=2. Who's fault missing our 9-card fit?
1

#2 User is online   sfi 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 2,576
  • Joined: 2009-May-18
  • Location:Oz

Posted 2021-October-21, 16:15

South's mostly. 1NT looks like a fine bid. North could double 2S, but the hand is minimum with only three hearts and partner hasn't shown any values.
0

#3 User is offline   Winstonm 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 17,190
  • Joined: 2005-January-08
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Tulsa, Oklahoma
  • Interests:Art, music

Posted 2021-October-21, 17:21

Both. Although south made no moved north can deduce a smattering of cards because of the limited nature of the opposition’s bidding. South could have helped with 1n but I think north should have been more aggressive.
"Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." Black Lives Matter. / "I need ammunition, not a ride." Zelensky
0

#4 User is offline   smerriman 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 3,726
  • Joined: 2014-March-15
  • Gender:Male

Posted 2021-October-21, 18:49

Would bid 1NT as South. As North, I would bid 2NT if playing the good/bad 2NT convention in order to compete to 3. Otherwise pass.
0

#5 User is offline   apollo1201 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 1,077
  • Joined: 2014-June-01

Posted 2021-October-21, 22:06

Mostly South. A first bid of 1NT is acceptabl with such a hand.

After the pass, contemplating 9 HCPs, and knowing partner is kinda unbalanced with a likely S singleton, balancing with 2NT for minors (suggesting C and a tolerance for partner’s D who rate to often be 5+ long) is not unreasonable as well. At worst, with very active opps, partner is 2443 and 3C should not be a desperate contract.

Both actions will convince N to bid 3D.

A brave N could also bid 3D by themselves, but personally I’d like a little more (a 7th D, an extra Q or K in one of my suits) to be fully at ease.

*edit* had overlooked (phone…) the 3 passes, so N can alone bid 3D knowing partner is around an 8 balanced, having decided to open, you are not doing it for the opps playing an easy 2-level contract in their 5-3 major fit, maybe pass or 3D were better calls for the opening?
0

#6 User is offline   akwoo 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 1,309
  • Joined: 2010-November-21

Posted 2021-October-22, 00:20

Both.

South has a 1N bid, and North should understand to (almost) never let opponents play in 2 of a fit.
0

#7 User is offline   LBengtsson 

  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Full Members
  • Posts: 974
  • Joined: 2017-August-10
  • Gender:Male

Posted 2021-October-22, 01:38

Am I not the only one to find it strange that players are suggesting a 1NT bid by South here? stiff Q, poor stop in suit. Partner raises to 3NT and down we go! lol! (although the player with the 5 card suit is under us so we might get through.)

I do not like giving support with three small, but if partner had opened 1/1 in a 4 card major system like Acol then bidding 2M would be accepted. I do not see that with 5431 shape and good support here that bidding 2 instead of 1NT to be not reasonable, especially if partner's 1 opener promised 4m+.

maybe I am the lone one to see it like this but it is only my opinion...
0

#8 User is offline   mcphee 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 1,512
  • Joined: 2003-February-16

Posted 2021-October-22, 02:32

I hand all the fault to the pass of 1!S. I think 1N is a poor choice although ok on values developing tricks could be a major problem so I like a simple raise of D, i do not think it could be worse than 4/3 fit. I might give 1NT consideration playing pairs, but not much.
0

#9 User is offline   DavidKok 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 2,235
  • Joined: 2020-March-30
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Netherlands

Posted 2021-October-22, 02:42

I can understand not liking pass or 1NT by South, but why are we choosing 2 when we have 2 available?

North had a chance to shine on the actual auction. East failed to open with 5(+) spades, so they have at most 11 points and likely 10 or less. West could not produce an invitational raise (and also failed to open, of course) and is limited to approximately 9 points. Along with the 12 in hand this marks South with at least 8 points and 3-4 spades. Failure to bid over 1 indicates at most 3 hearts and weak spades, so 6-7 cards in the minors. With assurances of both values and a fit North could have taken charge and bid on to 3m, possibly via a 2NT gadget.

Lastly North would have done well to open 2 in fourth hand, due to the spade shortage.
1

#10 User is offline   mw64ahw 

  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Full Members
  • Posts: 939
  • Joined: 2021-February-13
  • Gender:Not Telling
  • Interests:Bidding & play optimisation via simulation.

Posted 2021-October-22, 02:47

1NT would be my bid suggesting some sort of length/control in .
As North, and In the absence of a negative double, I would place South with at worst 4324 and a non-minimum responding hand.
3 then looks reasonably sound with a 6.5ish MLT

Playing my unbalanced approach makes bidding more comfortable as a 5 card minor is likely. A subsequent bid of 3 after North's pass then shows 3+ in each of the minors; Pass/Correct.
With a weak hand South can bid 3 pre-emptively. If North is 1444 then expect the pass.
0

#11 User is offline   DavidKok 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 2,235
  • Joined: 2020-March-30
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Netherlands

Posted 2021-October-22, 03:07

View Postmw64ahw, on 2021-October-22, 02:47, said:

Playing my unbalanced approach makes bidding more comfortable as a 5 card minor is likely. A subsequent bid of 3 after North's pass then shows 3+ in each of the minors; Pass/Correct.
Does 2NT then show 4(+) clubs? More generally, do you have a way to distinguish relative lengths in the minors? "3+ in each of the minors" is very little to go on.
0

#12 User is offline   mw64ahw 

  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Full Members
  • Posts: 939
  • Joined: 2021-February-13
  • Gender:Not Telling
  • Interests:Bidding & play optimisation via simulation.

Posted 2021-October-22, 04:26

View PostDavidKok, on 2021-October-22, 03:07, said:

Does 2NT then show 4(+) clubs? More generally, do you have a way to distinguish relative lengths in the minors? "3+ in each of the minors" is very little to go on.

2NT in this situation would be a 4(324)/ type invitational hand
With a non-GF hand I'm looking for the 8 card fit so no need or space to distinguish relative length of minors.
Opener is either 5431 w. 3+, long or 4(441).
Very occasionally you could end up in a minor suit Moysian fit when responder is weak & flat w. 1NT looking horrible , I doubt that would occur in competition.
With GF type (1-1) there is space without competition for opener to show their shape & strength precisely.

Happy to share the structure if interested
0

#13 User is offline   DavidKok 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 2,235
  • Joined: 2020-March-30
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Netherlands

Posted 2021-October-22, 04:35

View Postmw64ahw, on 2021-October-22, 04:26, said:

With a non-GF hand I'm looking for the 8 card fit so no need or space to distinguish relative length of minors.

Happy to share the structure if interested
I'm very interested, please do!
0

#14 User is offline   nige1 

  • 5-level belongs to me
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 9,128
  • Joined: 2004-August-30
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Glasgow Scotland
  • Interests:Poems Computers

Posted 2021-October-22, 10:27

mikl_plkcc 'We got a bottom letting their 2 made because everyone else played in . We use Standard American so 1 suggests 4 s with the exception of 4=4=3=2. Who's fault missing our 9-card fit?'
+++++++++++++++++++
Good problem, mikl_plkcc. After East's 1 overcall, for South, I rank
1. 2 = NAT. Underbid but lead-directional.
2. 1N = NAT. But the singleton Q is a draw-back.
3. Pass = NAT Prefer and holdings reversed.
4. 2 = F/1 Overbid, and not the desired lead.
After West's raise to 2, for North, I rank
1. X = T/O Weak in high cards but typical shape for this call.
2. Pass = NAT. (But timid, IMO).

0

#15 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 13,899
  • Joined: 2009-July-13
  • Location:England

Posted 2021-October-22, 14:42

I'm curious Nigel considers 2 an overbid, since we're a passed hand this is 9-10 or so for many strong NTers if they open a lot of 11s, yes the Q is awful but the KQ are good.
1

#16 User is offline   mw64ahw 

  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Full Members
  • Posts: 939
  • Joined: 2021-February-13
  • Gender:Not Telling
  • Interests:Bidding & play optimisation via simulation.

Posted 2021-October-22, 15:04

View PostDavidKok, on 2021-October-22, 04:35, said:

I'm very interested, please do!

Sent you a PM, but understand there may be a problem with these?



0

#17 User is offline   bgm 

  • PipPipPipPip
  • Group: Full Members
  • Posts: 129
  • Joined: 2012-December-07

Posted 2021-October-23, 04:42

At the balancing position, S knowing EW has 8-9 fit, and partner has 0-1

Therefore, partner is unbalanced with length, worst case is 1444 (and it depends whether you open 1 with 1444)

So South should know that EW has major double fit while we likely have minor double fit.

I am not sure how others will interpret Dbl here; I guess some of them may even think of PEN over T/O as S fail to act on first round.
If that is T/O, it should be a minor T/O as the hand with length will likely to have negative Dbl in the first round.

And one possibility balancing with 2NT which could not be natural as S fail to bid 1NT in first round. So I guess that make sense to interpret that as minor take out with 3 4+ . With 4+ we likely to compete in the first round already.

The most important thing is: Whether you want to defend opp 4M - this is the ultimate question you ask when you evaluating the hand. If S think that is risky to push them to 4M, then you may not want to balance at this point.
0

#18 User is offline   mw64ahw 

  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Full Members
  • Posts: 939
  • Joined: 2021-February-13
  • Gender:Not Telling
  • Interests:Bidding & play optimisation via simulation.

Posted 2021-October-24, 02:55

View Postbgm, on 2021-October-23, 04:42, said:

At the balancing position, S knowing EW has 8-9 fit, and partner has 0-1

Therefore, partner is unbalanced with length, worst case is 1444 (and it depends whether you open 1 with 1444)

So South should know that EW has major double fit while we likely have minor double fit.

I am not sure how others will interpret Dbl here; I guess some of them may even think of PEN over T/O as S fail to act on first round.
If that is T/O, it should be a minor T/O as the hand with length will likely to have negative Dbl in the first round.

And one possibility balancing with 2NT which could not be natural as S fail to bid 1NT in first round. So I guess that make sense to interpret that as minor take out with 3 4+ . With 4+ we likely to compete in the first round already.

The most important thing is: Whether you want to defend opp 4M - this is the ultimate question you ask when you evaluating the hand. If S think that is risky to push them to 4M, then you may not want to balance at this point.

A good analysis which identifies North as likely (barring 4 card overcalls & 3 card raises) to be unbalanced
In my post above DK asked what 2NT should be? I suggested an invitational balanced hand with , but this should only be over 1 in my UBD.
Perhaps logically X should suggest equal length &, 2NT should suggest longer and 3 longer with at least 33 for either option. I think this bidding makes reasonable sense with a singleton and 4
0

#19 User is offline   EricK 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 2,303
  • Joined: 2003-February-14
  • Location:England

Posted 2021-October-24, 21:12

In 4th seat, North should open 2 or pass. Weakish hands with short Spades are dangerous in 4th seat as often the opponents will have a spade fit and be able to outcompete you.

A 4th suit pre-empt is not a weak hand, but a minimum single-suited opening bid. It makes it harder for opponents to enter the auction and makes it easier for partner to know when to compete if opponents do butt in.
0

#20 User is online   Douglas43 

  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Full Members
  • Posts: 661
  • Joined: 2020-May-11
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Isle of Man
  • Interests:Walking, boring my wife with bridge stories

Posted 2021-October-25, 09:15

I agree with EricK. I would only open in fourth where my hcp plus number of spades equalled 15 or more, and would pass this one out. Think this is known as a Pearson count?
0

  • 2 Pages +
  • 1
  • 2
  • You cannot start a new topic
  • You cannot reply to this topic

1 User(s) are reading this topic
0 members, 1 guests, 0 anonymous users