[jillybean]

Club game

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[Cyberyeti]

We would play 6♦ I think

1♣-1♠
2N(GF unbal)-3♣(semi forced)
3♦(really big 4-6)-4♦

now there are various possible continuations, but I think they all lead to 6♦

I think 6♣ is better but not sure how you get there

[nullve]

nullve(N)-nullve(S):

1♣(1)-1♥(2)
2♦(3)-2♠(4)
3♣(5)-3♦(6)
3♥(7)-3♠(8)
4♣(9)-4♠(10)
5♣(11)-5♥(12)
5N(13)-6♣(14)
6♦(15)-P

(1) NAT(ish) unBAL or 11-13/17-19/23+ BAL
(2) "0+, 4+ S". 0-3 H unless GF values.
(3) "19-21 unBAL" (ART)
(4) GF relay
(5) "5+C(3)4+D"
(6) relay
(7) 2245, 6C4D(21), 8+C3(!)D or 6+C4+D0S
(8) relay
(9) 18-20 hcp, 0346
(10) Parity Key Card Blackwood agreeing diamonds
(11) odd # of key cards, no trump Q
(12) ♣K ask
(13) ♣K, no ♥K
(14) ♣Q ask
(15) no ♣Q

[Winstonm]

IMO, the best way to think about 2C as an opening bid is that it is to be avoided unless it is absolutely necessary. It is quite unlikely to miss anything of significance with this hand unless partner can respond to 1C, so I don't see 2C as necessary. I open 1C.

So, I believe my auction would be:

1C-1S
2D-3D*
3H-3S
yadi, yadi,
yada.
6D

*3D is forward going. A weak hand would start with 2N.

[LBengtsson]

simple bidding with responder splinter

1♣ - 1♠ - 2♦ - 3♥ (splinter, good ♦ support) - 4♣ - 4♦ - 4♥(cue) - 4NT (rkcb) - 6♦ (3 key cards and a void)

might miss grand if partner has ♣ akqxxx

[Douglas43]

Is it really a good idea to play 4♣ as ace-asking in sequence where partner has shown a game force with strong clubs? If it just agreed clubs as trumps you'd have cue bid your way to 6♣. Is an ace ask by the weaker hand that useful here?

[mikeh]

A useful rule for when to use 4C as asking for aces is that it requires a jump to 4C over 1 or 2N.

Here, 2C is an overbid. As Winston says, how are you missing game if it goes 1C PPP?

1C leads to an easy auction, finding diamonds on round 2, and ending up in what should be an easy 6D.

[Cyberyeti]

mikeh, on 2021-April-08, 13:43, said:

A useful rule for when to use 4C as asking for aces is that it requires a jump to 4C over 1 or 2N.

Here, 2C is an overbid. As Winston says, how are you missing game if it goes 1C PPP?

1C leads to an easy auction, finding diamonds on round 2, and ending up in what should be an easy 6D.

You are potentially missing game (or even slam if stuff behaves and they lead a non spade) if partner passes with xxxxx, 10987x, x, Qx although you may get rescued by opps (more likely if partner has the 4-6 version). You may also miss game or (even grand) slam opposite xxxxx, Kx, xx, 10xxx. That said I still open 1♣.

[nullve]

Cyberyeti, on 2021-April-08, 14:12, said:

You are potentially missing game (or even slam if stuff behaves and they lead a non spade) if partner passes with xxxxx, 10987x, x, Qx although you may get rescued by opps (more likely if partner has the 4-6 version). You may also miss game or (even grand) slam opposite xxxxx, Kx, xx, 10xxx. That said I still open 1♣.

Why would you pass 1♣ with any of these hands?

[Cyberyeti]

nullve, on 2021-April-08, 14:30, said:

Why would you pass 1♣ with any of these hands?

Because on the first partner will have a 2254 18-19 count and we'll get miles too high, and on the second he'll force to game and it will have no play. (We also play a 4+ card club so the danger of a 2-2 or 3-2 fit doesn't exist). If you respond on 2 or 3 counts with a doubleton club it's almost impossible to bid constructively. We could actually respond 3♣ on the second which is what we would do with a spade in with the clubs and shows a real bust.

[pescetom]

I agree that 2♣ is not useful here and South's bidding makes no sense to me.
We would probably bid it:

1♣ 1♠
2♦ 4♦
4♥ 4♠
5♣ 6♦
p

North's 5♣ shows odd keycards which might just miss a grand given the void, but that seems unlikely given South's sequence.

[jillybean]

Here's the full hand. The majority of pairs were caught in the 3nt trap, one pair bid 6♦+1 (South), one pair 6♦-2

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I don't have a strong opinion on the opening bid, I'd be comfortable opening 1♣.
Over 3N I have an easy 4♣ Ace ask, 4♣ although perhaps not the best treatment, is always CRO here.
As was mentioned earlier, sometimes bad bidding gets you to a good contract.

[jillybean]

mikeh, on 2021-April-08, 13:43, said:

A useful rule for when to use 4C as asking for aces is that it requires a jump to 4C over 1 or 2N.

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Further to this, trying to unravel the 4♣ gerber/cro/kickback/natural dilemma.
When playing kickback I would think 4♦ here must be kickback, you are not introducing a new suit at the 4 level, and 4♣ forward going in clubs?