[jillybean]

---

2/1, 2♦ promises 5
A 2♠ rebid by opener would show a good hand, a "King more than minimum".

Your bid?

[sfi]

Wouldn't you open this hand without the HK?

[apollo1201]

jillybean, on 2021-March-14, 00:10, said:

a "King more than minimum".

Isn’t it what we have?

Ok, the D sg is probably a negative factor, but the good honor quality really compensates.

[ali quarg]

Game in any colour is still a possibility even if a 7 card fit

With 2♥ showing a minimum 2♠ is natural & keeps the options open. This would show either a 5422/5413/4603 with weak ♥s. North is then in the position to enquire about which shape/define his own shape further/bid 3NT with a club stopper.
Alternatively just bid 3NT with the partial ♣ stopper, but this may close off a slam in ♣ if North holds both Minors.

[LBengtsson]

why are you asking this question as you know already the answer? 2♠ says more than minimum but does not promise ♦ support. any other bid looks dumb when you have a ready answer to partner's bid.

[jillybean]

---

Contrary to the popular vote above, you take low road and bid 2♥.
Have you dug yourself a hole from which you can't escape?

[akwoo]

You now bid 3♠. That should show spade support.

It's possible that partner won't make a control bid of 4♣ when slam is on because they think you can't be this strong, but not that likely.

[apollo1201]

jillybean, on 2021-March-14, 13:46, said:

Have you dug yourself a hole from which you can't escape?

Is 2S natural, or can it be a strength on the way to 3NT?
I guess we have to bid 3S now, and if partner doesn’t investigate for slam, we’ve not missed anything. If he tries, we’ll cooperate as much as we can. We can’t be any better for sure😉

[jillybean]

Is 2♠ natural or a probe for nt?
I would assume the latter for now and bidding 3♠ can back partner into a corner.

[mikeh]

jillybean, on 2021-March-14, 14:53, said:

Is 2♠ natural or a probe for nt?
I would assume the latter for now and bidding 3♠ can back partner into a corner.

It’s natural

Since responder can have 4S and longer diamonds, constructive bidding here is about sorting out fit/ lack of fit.

If 3S were a notrump probe or spades, pity poor responder with spades and diamonds. He has to bid 3S and now wtf does opener bid when he was just probing for 3N, presumably with not much in clubs, since no 2N bid earlier.

[sfi]

jillybean, on 2021-March-14, 14:53, said:

Is 2♠ natural or a probe for nt?
I would assume the latter for now and bidding 3♠ can back partner into a corner.

TBH it looks like you are making a simple hand complex. One of the advantages of 2/1 is it establishes a game-force early on and allows the partnership to exchange information without having to jump around. But you're (or whoever bid this hand) not using that. First, opener has an easy opportunity to describe nine cards in their hand at the two-level, but instead makes a nebulous bid that doesn't provide any information at all. Second, responder chooses 2S which for some reason may not be natural, despite the natural meaning being important and the NT probe interpretation being mostly unnecessary. Which means opener can't even raise with confidence.

All this means you are making it harder to get to normal spots than it needs to be. On this hand:

• Opener should make the normal bid unless there is a clear reason not to. Here, simply subtract a king and see whether you would open the hand. Don't worry about the singleton diamond - partner has already said you're going to game so try and work out the best one.
  
• Responder's 2S should be natural. If they have something like KQx Qx AQJxx xxx, responder can simply bid 2NT. Opener can now show values with a new suit if they are worried about the other one in 3NT.
  
• Opener should raise 2S to 3S anyway. Are you really going to avoid a 4-4 spade fit for the third bid in a row?

If I were opener and hadn't bid 2S on the second round, I would hope I could bid 4D as a splinter in support of spades now (and generally I can). Even though it's partner's suit it draws a map which should get us to the right spot more than anything else.

[pilowsky]

jillybean, on 2021-March-14, 00:10, said:

---

2/1, 2♦ promises 5
A 2♠ rebid by opener would show a good hand, a "King more than minimum".

Your bid?

As sfi implies, any bid of 2(minor) over 1(major) establishes that you cannot stop below game.
On the other hand, 1NT is absolutely forcing for one round (North is not a passed hand).
1. The bid of 2♦ does not deny support for Hearts.
2. 2♦ does not require 5 ♦ - only a Diamond suit and a game-forcing hand.
3. 2♠ is both natural and forcing and suggests to me that North has 4243 (SHDC) and 13+HCP.
4. A bid of 3♠ by opener ought to have 4♠ in my view to safely allow for game in spades.
5. Responder now has a choice of 4♠ or 3NT.
6. After Responder has bid 3♠ or 3NT, the opener can stop or continue depending on the quality of their hand.

That's how I would have understood it from GIB 2/1 - I'd be interested to know how close it is to reality.

[mikeh]

jillybean, on 2021-March-14, 14:53, said:

Is 2♠ natural or a probe for nt?
I would assume the latter for now and bidding 3♠ can back partner into a corner.

I misread your post about 2S, because I missed the post where opener rebid 2H and responder bid 2S

But:

2S is natural and opener raises

You may have created a problem since responder may/should take you for a weaker hand, but this won’t matter most of the time. Whatever you do, don’t try to catch up by now overbidding. If you’ve fixed yourself, stay fixed. That, btw, is a very important lesson for virtually all auctions. If you’ve described your hand, and done so wrongly, don’t ever try to overbid or underbid thereafter. Just hope it works out.

[jillybean]

Here's the complete hands and depressing auction.
South downgraded their hand due to the shortness my suit, (2♦ promises 5),J's& Q's, and wanted to show willingness to play in nt after 2♠
After 3♠, we have nowhere to go except to 4♠

---

[Cyberyeti]

Can you not bid 4♦ over 2♠ to show a hand not quite strong enough to bid 2♠ over 2♦ with a singleton diamond ? Doesn't any hand with a diamond fit bid 3♦ either over 2♦ or 2♠.

[DavidKok]

jillybean, on 2021-March-15, 04:07, said:

Here's the complete hands and depressing auction.
South downgraded their hand due to the shortness my suit, (2♦ promises 5),J's& Q's, and wanted to show willingness to play in nt after 2♠
After 3♠, we have nowhere to go except to 4♠

---

I don't like 2♥, 2NT, 3♠ and 4♠ on this auction.

Cyberyeti, on 2021-March-15, 04:32, said:

Can you not bid 4♦ over 2♠ to show a hand not quite strong enough to bid 2♠ over 2♦ with a singleton diamond ? Doesn't any hand with a diamond fit bid 3♦ either over 2♦ or 2♠.

You don't get rich by raising diamonds on the first opportunity. I'd reserve that jump for a hand with great hearts and good diamond support, and apparently no club splinter. Regardless splintering in your partner's suit is not something I want to have in my arsenal.

[Cyberyeti]

DavidKok, on 2021-March-15, 06:11, said:

You don't get rich by raising diamonds on the first opportunity. I'd reserve that jump for a hand with great hearts and good diamond support, and apparently no club splinter. Regardless splintering in your partner's suit is not something I want to have in my arsenal.

It depends which picture bid is more useful, I can't picture a hand with diamond support that can't happily be bid by either:

1♥-2♦-3♦
1♥-2♦-2♥-2♠-3♦
1♥-2♦-2♥-2♠-3♣-?-4♦
1♥-2♦-2♥-2♠-4♣
1♥-2♦-3♠
1♥-2♦-4♣

(presuming the last two are splinters)

I suppose x, AKQxxx, AJxx, xx might be close but I think I might bid 3♠

You rarely want to splinter in partner's suit, but it can be really useful, partner knows Axxxx is good, xxxxx is possibly better and KQxxx is bad.

[mikeh]

jillybean, on 2021-March-15, 04:07, said:

Here's the complete hands and depressing auction.
South downgraded their hand due to the shortness my suit, (2♦ promises 5),J's& Q's, and wanted to show willingness to play in nt after 2♠
After 3♠, we have nowhere to go except to 4♠

---

Obviously the 2N bid was based on a misunderstanding of the meaning of 2S, but I am also puzzled by the 3S rebid.

Ask yourself this:

How would/should responder bid with KQxxx x AKxxxx x?

The answer, of course, is to respond 2D and then, over 2H to bid 2S.

Then after 2N, we have an easy 3S bid, which says that we have 5+ spades, longer diamonds, and a game-force hand (I say 5+ because I have twice hand 8-5 hands and once 7-6, but of course 5-6 is far more common than 5-7 or either of the pure two suiters)

Once opener denies 4S by bidding 2N, responder, with a misfit and no special trick-taking source nor a super-abundance of high cards shuts it down via 3N....a typical hand for opener being xxx AKJxx xx AJx or Ax KJxxxx xx Axx

While I'm on the thread, I agree with Cyber that 1H 2D 2H 2S 4D logically ought not to be diamonds, since 3D would suffice on most hands with diamond support.

I'd splinter over 2D on some 5431 hands, and rebid 2H with most 6=4 hands

But, in a partnership that doesn't know what 1H 2D 2H 2S shows, I would not risk 4D. It's the sort of action that one considers, rejects, and then discusses after the session.....'remember board 6? Where we had the good spade fit? I was thinking of 4D over 2S...as a splinter. How would you have taken it?'

[nige1]

mikeh, on 2007-March-01, 17:31, said:

There are two schools of thought about the strength shown by opener. My preference is for what is known as the strong reverse approach: opener has a good 18 or more, altho even we strong reversers will upgrade 16 or 17 counts with a good 3 card holding in responder's suit. Thus after partner responds to my 1♦ with 1♠, I'll reverse to 2♥ with AQx AJxx KQ10xx x, but not with x AJxx KQ10xx AQx.

Some time ago, MikeH wrote an instructive article on Reverses. Unless he 's changed his mind over the past decade and a bit, it's doubtful whether JillyBean's hand meets Mike's reverse criteria

[smerriman]

nige1, on 2021-March-17, 14:36, said:

Some time ago, MikeH wrote an instructive article on Reverses. Unless he 's changed his mind over the past decade and a bit, it's doubtful whether JillyBean's hand meets Mike's reverse criteria

Note that he did say in that article he wasn't talking about situations such as the one discussed in this thread:

mikeh, on 2007-March-01, 17:31, said:

So I am not dealing with related topics such as whether 1♦ 2♣ 2♥ is a reverse or whether 1♠ 2♥ 3♣ requires additional strength (the 'high level reverse).