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A cuebid

#1 User is offline   1parastoo 

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Posted 2020-November-18, 17:53

Hi,
I don't know how to show hands.
My partner and I were playing with some friends today at a teaching table.
I had 17 or 18 pts. stoppers in S and H Dxx AKQxxx in Clubs.
I was the opener and the bidding went like this 1C 1S Dbl. P
2S P ?
My partner had 6 pts. and H Kxxx and D Kxxx.
I meant my cue bid to say " I've got pts. but I don't know where we should be.Tell me some more."
She at first thought I was asking her to pick her best suit but I explained to her that since we learned that one wants to be in a major suit
fit if at all possible if I had had four hearts I would have bid them instead of cue bidding she should have realized I was asking her for more info.
So I talked her into bidding 3D and I then bid 3NT which we made.
So, was my cue bid a valid cue bid?
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#2 User is online   mycroft 

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Posted 2020-November-18, 18:20

In North America, I would expect with no discussion that this would show a strong heart raise. Cuebids in competition tend to either mean that or "looking for stopper for 3NT". This allows a 3 call to be the kind of hand that is trying to impede 3 from the opponents, based on length rather than strength.

With your hand I would have bid what I would have bid without the competition. If it had gone 1-p-1-p, you would have bid 2NT with 18-19 balanced, yes? So, do the same thing here, shows the same strength of hand (and lack of heart support), along with a spade stopper (something partner will really want to know about).

But frankly, you can't be completely wrong with a forcing bid, even if partner doesn't get it. It might not have been best - and you might have ended up in 4 on the 4-3 fit - but it wasn't 1x+2, or 3+1 with game on in two places.
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#3 User is offline   smerriman 

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Posted 2020-November-18, 18:24

With a balanced 17-18 with stopper(s) in spades, I would know where I want to be - I would likely have bid 2NT, just as if the opponents were silent and partner had responded 1.

But generally yes, a cue bid would just show a generic game forcing hand, and can be a multitude of different hand types; it says nothing about hearts.
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#4 User is offline   Stephen Tu 

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Posted 2020-November-18, 21:04

View Postmycroft, on 2020-November-18, 18:20, said:

In North America, I would expect with no discussion that this would show a strong heart raise.

This is just wrong. Cue bids by *responder* to opening bid show raises, because you have bids to show other suits (bidding other suits, negative doubles), and want to be able to show strong raises (most direct raises being played these days as weak), and there is nothing else left but cue bid available (unless willing to sacrifice 2nt).
Cue bids by *opener* to show raises aren't needed though, because you have 3 levels of direct heart raises available at least, with the higher ones showing stronger hands, plus some splinters. How many raises do you need? Meanwhile, you need to be able to force with a great one suiter without heart support or spade stopper without going past 3nt and conserving space, and 3m rebid is NF.

So cue bid by opener should be assumed to be strong one suiter, usually looking for a stopper in the opponent's suit, NOT a heart raise, without discussion. Now if the bidding had gone say 1c-(1s)-2h-(p)-2s, this is *sometimes* be a heart raise too good for 4H and unsuited to 3s spl, but still it should initially be assumed to be just strong with clubs looking for spade stopper.

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#5 User is online   mikeh 

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Posted 2020-November-18, 21:18

I’m not quite in agreement with Stephen

To me, if opener bid 2S, after 1C (1S) x (p), the cuebidding simply says:

I have a huge hand. We’re going to game. Make your cheapest natural bid and I will tell you more about my hand next time.

It is, in my experience, always either a massive hand with long clubs or a massive hand with 4 hearts. Other strong hands can find another call, such as 2D as a reverse.

It does not ‘ask’ for a spade stopper, but this is semantics since the cheapest descriptive bid by responder, holding a spade stopper, is 2N

Note that responder does not jump: since the partnership is forced to game and it is often essential for opener to make a descriptive bid below 3N. There’s lots of room to sort things out when responder has slam ambitions.

If, instead of 2S, opener rebids 2N, that is about 18-19 hcp, with at least one stopper. 3H is invitational to 4H, much the same as if th3 auction had been, uncontested, 1C 1H 3H
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#6 User is offline   Stephen Tu 

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Posted 2020-November-19, 00:12

View Postmikeh, on 2020-November-18, 21:18, said:

I'm not quite in agreement with Stephen

To me, if opener bid 2S, after 1C (1S) x (p), the cuebidding simply says:

I have a huge hand. We're going to game. Make your cheapest natural bid and I will tell you more about my hand next time.

It is, in my experience, always either a massive hand with long clubs or a massive hand with 4 hearts. Other strong hands can find another call, such as 2D as a reverse.

For me, I'd expect at least 30 hands with long clubs or 18/19 bal without spade stopper for every massive hand with 4 hearts. I mean one already has 4h, 3s, probably 4c/4d, maybe 3d also if 2d is forcing reverse to show your fg heart hands. You are limited from failure to open 2c. What sort of hand needs a sixth strong way to raise hearts that is clearly better than any of the alternatives?
Yeah I suppose it's possible, but the big hand with clubs is loads more common and has no reasonable alternative (unless willing to fake reverse 2d a lot).

In this situation, with a fit you are basically in similar position as after 1c-p-1h-p-? Most people confine their GF heart raises to those 5, they don't put any 4 cd heart raises into 2S/2d. So why different after the overcall?

Over a 2H freebid, there are a bit fewer options and you have to deal with 3cd support hands, so the strong raise would be more common.
But I train my partners to assume opener's cue *denies* support, initially. In any case the support hands should be very infrequent.
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#7 User is online   apollo1201 

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Posted 2020-November-19, 12:45

View Postsmerriman, on 2020-November-18, 18:24, said:

With a balanced 17-18 with stopper(s) in spades, I would know where I want to be - I would likely have bid 2NT, just as if the opponents were silent and partner had responded 1.

I think that partner promises a bit more than just an unopposed 1H response. He can pass more freely so X is at least semi positive.
With the given hand, now you know you can force to game and 3NT is probably the best shot.
2NT should be invitational, a bit less strength and probably unbalanced since no 1NT opener. Maybe sg H and 5-6 clubs, around 16 HCP.
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#8 User is online   mycroft 

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Posted 2020-November-19, 13:46

Today I learned! OP, ignore the first bit. Thanks, Stephen, Mike.

"bid what you would have, given the spade stopper" and "congratulations for finding a call partner can't pass" I think still apply.
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#9 User is offline   pescetom 

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Posted 2020-November-19, 15:27

As this is novice and beginner's forum, it might be worth noting that "cue bid" is highly ambiguous in bridge.
Trying to limit "cue bid" to just one meaning or to eliminate it altogether is a losing battle, but one can at least clarify.
"Overcall of opponent's suit" or at least a "cue bid of opponent's suit" are ways of referring to this kind of bid.
A "control bid" is a clear way of referring to a bid showing control in a suit, more often referred to as "cue bid".
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