[pilowsky]

Nice work with the new software. Always challenging when moving to new software. I am impressed that it works so well out of the box.
Just a few suggestions:

• Flashing claim button when result is certain (or change colour perhaps). This would be especially helpful since some players seem to have slow internet connections.
  
• A button to increase or decrease the font throughout the entire GUI would be nice if possible.
  
• A place that holds the opening lead where the result is shown after play.
  
• An option to not display Masterpoints next to ones name.
  
• Restore the indicator of Tournaments that are played but not finished in the 'complete' area.
  
• More information in a searchable help menu that is much more extensive than the current one.
  
• A link to these BBO Forums from the Home page after Login.
  
• An Online BBO Directors course.
  
• A link to a site that teaches the 2/1 and GIB system as used by the robots on BBO including leads/discards, along with a full description of the conventions that the GIB uses.
  
• Ability to optionally create a folder and export directly the deal and the handviewer link. Currently you have to first create a folder then go back and export into it and you cannot save the tiny URL. There is also nowhere to save a note about a hand or the bidding.

♥MOST urgent♥, a collection of nice youtube videos that describe in detail for newcomers where all the bits and pieces are on BBO: 'BBO for dummies'. Perhaps this could be sponsored in the context of lessons with some of your excellent Prime members - many of whom have helped me?
EG: How to set up and run a Team match.
How to join a Tournament
How to use the chat
How to collect hand records
and so on and so on
I really appreciate the depth of this site and would like to use it fully. A good guided tour series aimed at 'ordinary users' would be extremely helpful.

[barmar]

The flashing claim button seems like a bad idea. Sometimes the player doesn't realize that their spot cards are high, and they give up a trick that they didn't have to. Having the computer keep track of this is too much help.

It's already possible to make use of this in robot games. If you're not sure, you try to claim and see if it accepts.

[TylerE]

Not just a bad idea, but patently against the laws of bridge. Clearly an aid to calculation or memory.

[pilowsky]

 barmar, on 2019-October-20, 13:34, said:

The flashing claim button seems like a bad idea. Sometimes the player doesn't realize that their spot cards are high, and they give up a trick that they didn't have to. Having the computer keep track of this is too much help.

It's already possible to make use of this in robot games. If you're not sure, you try to claim and see if it accepts.

Perhaps you misunderstood the point - although I tried to phrase it carefully. "WHEN THE RESULT IS CERTAIN" this stops the game being stuck if a player stops playing for any reason, or if their connection (as I put it it) is very slow. Obviously the button would not flash if the outcome is UNCERTAIN. this feature - handshake mode is implemented in other online bridge games and is implemented in, as you point out tournaments with robots.

[pilowsky]

You hold in your 'hand' the AK of trumps as the last two winning cards of the contract, and your op stops playing. How is it a bad idea to be able to force a claim before you leave the table?

[TylerE]

Because the laws of bridge say you have to use your noodle until all the cards have been played.

[pescetom]

 pilowsky, on 2019-October-20, 14:14, said:

Perhaps you misunderstood the point - although I tried to phrase it carefully. "WHEN THE RESULT IS CERTAIN" this stops the game being stuck if a player stops playing for any reason, or if their connection (as I put it it) is very slow. Obviously the button would not flash if the outcome is UNCERTAIN. this feature - handshake mode is implemented in other online bridge games and is implemented in, as you point out tournaments with robots.

I agree that this would be useful. It is however as others have pointed out in partial contrast with the current laws of bridge. Hopefully the planned WBF laws for electronic play will sort out the claim procedure along with other obvious issues.

 pilowsky, on 2019-October-20, 14:14, said:

Can I also suggest in light of this, and some of the other comments that I receive (and observe in life), that it seems to be a common theme amongst respondents to provide non-constructive comments here

Can I suggest that you might receive more constructive comments if you respected the community more? Not using loud fonts or cross posting the same message, for instance.

[smerriman]

 pilowsky, on 2019-October-20, 14:44, said:

You hold in your 'hand' the AK of trumps as the last two winning cards of the contract, and your op stops playing. How is it a bad idea to be able to force a claim before you leave the table?

Because this doesn't solve the problem. Next time you're in a far more likely scenario where you have AK2 of trumps, and one opponent has the 3. You can't possibly build a system to allow an automatic claim here.

Spending all of the time required to build a feature to continually check you're guaranteed to not lose a trick therefore doesn't seem worthwhile, if the aim is to deal with opponents not playing.

[KingCovert]

 smerriman, on 2019-October-20, 17:17, said:

Because this doesn't solve the problem. Next time you're in a far more likely scenario where you have AK2 of trumps, and one opponent has the 3. You can't possibly build a system to allow an automatic claim here.

Spending all of the time required to build a feature to continually check you're guaranteed to not lose a trick therefore doesn't seem worthwhile, if the aim is to deal with opponents not playing.

Actually, building this is very trivial. When double dummy solvers determine the result, they assume the best line of play against the line being tested. (Oversimplying very heavily here)
Instead, this is easily tested by checking if ALL lines of play result in all the tricks being won by the same player. If any line of play has a different outcome, you've identified that the outcome is uncertain.

[smerriman]

 KingCovert, on 2019-October-21, 14:30, said:

Actually, building this is very trivial.

The logic is simple, yes. Was saying the time spent integrating it in the way mentioned (running a check after every trick, accounting for it in the UI, and changing the whole claim logic) is rather a pointless use of time.

But pilowsky is clearly only interested in antagonizing now.

[EddyHaskel]

I doubt that the intent of the initial question, "Props and Ideas for the New Software," was so we could all jump on one idea and hammer away at why we may or may not think it's a good idea. I'm pretty sure the BBO designers can figure out which ones make sense without all of the piling on and yammering about one we may think isn't helpful.

So onward, in hopes of changing the subject and perhaps the tone of the discussion...

I think BBO-v3 is great leap forward. I couldn't stand BBO-v2, the "Browser/Flash version." Lucky for me, as some sort of "legacy" user, I was allowed to continue using the old original Windows client version for some unspecified period of time. There are still a few things about that original version that I miss, but the more I use the newest software the more I like it.

One small complaint is how the bid box disappears once the contract is set. You can recall it, but it appears smack in the middle of the table, covering up the cards being played. If there were some other bit of display real estate to display the bidding after the contract is set, it would be a big improvement. I'm pretty sure the BBO staff has already heard about this from most if not all the vugraph commentators.

I do miss the realtime updating of the original software as people sit or stand from kibitzing or enter or leave BBO, etc. I understand that since it is not client-side software, a server based system can't update every single coming or going all at once in real time. Perhaps a refresh-all-users button could get close to this?

Finally, there is nothing even close to the ability to load and run the old Bridgemaster series. I know for all of you experts this may not be a big deal. But for newer players that feature was a thing of beauty. I know that ACBL has made an attempt at making those deals available for browser use, but the implementation is feeble, at best. If we want to attract younger new users and bridge players, we need to make those tools work well here on BBO v-3.

The new voice commentary function is about a hundred times better than BBO-v2's Flash Player implementation. If you ever watch vugraph matches with voice commentators, or attend a lesson at a teaching table where voice is enabled, I urge you to try it out. The audio is clear and crisp and easier to use for both commentators and listeners. Now anyone can open a teaching table and enable the voice functions for themselves or for anyone else at the table, freed from the tyranny of Skype or other third party audio software.

[steve2005]

 pilowsky, on 2019-October-20, 14:14, said:

Perhaps you misunderstood the point - although I tried to phrase it carefully. "WHEN THE RESULT IS CERTAIN" .

What part of it is against the rules did you not understand?

[SelfGovern]

 steve2005, on 2019-October-21, 17:52, said:

What part of it is against the rules did you not understand?

There are several things in BBO that are against the rules. Among them are:

• The auction is not to be visible after a player has played to trick 1
• Undos are not allowed, or if they were, there would be exposed card penalties and possibly penalties in the auction (and then on opening lead)
• The partner of the player is responsible for alerting and explaining his partner's bids

Personally, while it may be strictly against the rules of the ACBL, I can't see the harm in suggesting a claim when only declarer has trump, and declarer has all the trump (or an equivalent condition)..

In any case, no need to be agressive with your "what part did you not understand". I bet you didn't get selected for BBO Prime with an attitude like that.

[barmar]

We didn't write our own double-dummy solver, we just use the one that's built into GIB. AFAIK, there's no software that implements this "all lines lead to the same result" check. It's only applicable in a few situations, and most of these times either declarer will claim by themselves or a defender will concede. BBO has extremely limited programmer resources ever since Fred retired, this would not be an effective use of them.

[tedf]

Clicking on the small box showing the contract causes the
bidding to reappear in a momentary box. Clickin on that box restores the screen. Or so I recall.

Ted Fulton (tedf)

 EddyHaskel, on 2019-October-21, 17:10, said:

I doubt that the intent of the initial question, "Props and Ideas for the New Software," was so we could all jump on one idea and hammer away at why we may or may not think it's a good idea. I'm pretty sure the BBO designers can figure out which ones make sense without all of the piling on and yammering about one we may think isn't helpful.

So onward, in hopes of changing the subject and perhaps the tone of the discussion...

I think BBO-v3 is great leap forward. I couldn't stand BBO-v2, the "Browser/Flash version." Lucky for me, as some sort of "legacy" user, I was allowed to continue using the old original Windows client version for some unspecified period of time. There are still a few things about that original version that I miss, but the more I use the newest software the more I like it.

One small complaint is how the bid box disappears once the contract is set. You can recall it, but it appears smack in the middle of the table, covering up the cards being played. If there were some other bit of display real estate to display the bidding after the contract is set, it would be a big improvement. I'm pretty sure the BBO staff has already heard about this from most if not all the vugraph commentators.

I do miss the realtime updating of the original software as people sit or stand from kibitzing or enter or leave BBO, etc. I understand that since it is not client-side software, a server based system can't update every single coming or going all at once in real time. Perhaps a refresh-all-users button could get close to this?

Finally, there is nothing even close to the ability to load and run the old Bridgemaster series. I know for all of you experts this may not be a big deal. But for newer players that feature was a thing of beauty. I know that ACBL has made an attempt at making those deals available for browser use, but the implementation is feeble, at best. If we want to attract younger new users and bridge players, we need to make those tools work well here on BBO v-3.

The new voice commentary function is about a hundred times better than BBO-v2's Flash Player implementation. If you ever watch vugraph matches with voice commentators, or attend a lesson at a teaching table where voice is enabled, I urge you to try it out. The audio is clear and crisp and easier to use for both commentators and listeners. Now anyone can open a teaching table and enable the voice functions for themselves or for anyone else at the table, freed from the tyranny of Skype or other third party audio software.

[EddyHaskel]

Is there a way to make north always be positioned at the top of the display?
E.g when kibitzing all 4 hands the configuration is "normal," I.e.,

   N
W   E
   S

But when kibitzing north only (or playing as north), it reverses the layout and places N to the bottom of the screen, i.e.,
   S
E   W
   N

It feels even more discombulating when sitting east or west and having it move me to the bottom -- what is normally the south position.

Did I miss something in the settings that sets north always at the top instead of moving it to the bottom when playing?

<edited for clarity...should always preview before posting >

[barmar]

 EddyHaskel, on 2019-October-22, 17:55, said:

But when kibitzing north only (or playing as north), it reverses the layout and places N to the bottom of the screen, i.e.,
...
Did I miss something in the settings that sets north always at the top instead of moving it to the bottom when playing?

No, you didn't miss anything, this is not an option. When you're playing, the idea is to make the perspective like a real-world table. LHO is on the left and RHO is on the right, regardless of the compass directions.

And when you kibbitz a single player, you see the table from their perspective.

[Povratnik]

 EddyHaskel, on 2019-October-21, 17:10, said:

One small complaint is how the bid box disappears once the contract is set. You can recall it, but it appears smack in the middle of the table, covering up the cards being played. If there were some other bit of display real estate to display the bidding after the contract is set, it would be a big improvement. I'm pretty sure the BBO staff has already heard about this from most if not all the vugraph commentators.

I wanted to open a new thread, but there is no need. My suggestion would be:
(If there isn't a better solution) The bidding box could be lowered a bit, just to not cover the cards. There is enough space and I hope it isn't very difficult to implement...

[EddyHaskel]

Another issue:
In the original version and (I think) in BBOv2/Flash version, when you kibitzed a player in a tournament, then hit the "back" button you would be taken to the list of tables still playing in the tournament.

The newest BBO version does not do that. Instead it returns you to wherever you were before you started kibitzing. This is not a helpful feature. Now we have to figure out the number of tournament, go look it up and finally get a list of the tables still playing. The old way makes more sense and made it easier to see what else was happening elsewhere in the tournament you were just watching.

Is it possible to revert to the old method? Failing that, is it possible to add a button that accomplishes the same thing?

Thanks for listening.