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Multilandy over weak NT

#1 User is offline   pescetom 

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Posted 2019-May-29, 14:52

In this recent discussion we discussed some simple conventions for interference over NT and indirectly how to modify such conventions for use over weak NT.
During a MP tournament yesterday a board turned up that was pertinent to that discussion.



We play a fairly standard Multilandy where:
Double = 4=M + 5+m
2 = +
2 = 6+M
2 = 5= + 4+m
2 = 5= + 4+m
2N = +
3m = 6+ natural

South opened a weak NT which is unusual around here and there are no related variations agreed in this partnership.
East being in balancing seat at this vulnerability meditated 3, but then passed.

Would you bid differently with these agreements?
How (if at all) would you modify these agreements to cope with weak NT?
What would you bid with your own agreements in this situation and what does it mean?
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#2 User is offline   apollo1201 

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Posted 2019-May-29, 15:41

Over weak NT, people usually try to keep a penalty X, so balancing with X to show points and semi balanced hand is what lots would’do.

I’d do it here nevertheless with the Multi Landy, hoping partner can convert. And if she doesn’t, I am « almost » 5D and 4H. Bidding 3D with this lousy 5-cd suit is not showing a good judgment, I think.
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#3 User is offline   nige1 

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Posted 2019-May-29, 16:23

Pescetom writes 'We play a fairly standard Multilandy where:
-- Double = 4=M + 5+m
-- 2 = +
-- 2 = 6+M
-- 2 = 5= + 4+m
-- 2 = 5= + 4+m
-- 2N = +
-- 3m = 6+ natural'
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++
IMO, Pescetom's agreements are fine. Paradoxically: Double showing 4M & 5+ m should result in more successful doubles of 1N than a strong penalty double (which is less frequent). Apollo1201 seems right that it's not much of a stretch to double on this hand, treating s as 4-card. With an enormous balanced hand (much stronger than this one), I think you also have to double, anyway -- and then improvise with 2N or whatever. So double is always a bit ambiguous.

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#4 User is offline   mikeh 

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Posted 2019-May-29, 16:47

I play in ACBLand, where the weak 1N opening is a minority approach. However, locally two of our Grand Life Masters (Doug and Sandra Fraser) play the 11-14 1N in 1st and 2nd, and for a few years I was in a serious partnership with one of them, and both have had an influence on other players locally so perhaps it is more common where I live than most places in the Pacific NW.

In any event, informed both by my experiences playing weak 1N (10-12, 11-13, 11-14, in different expert partnerships over the past 25 years), and in playing against the weak 1N, mostly at imps, I would never give up on the penalty double in direct seat, by an unpassed hand. I have seen a lot of numbers obtained by the penalty double, although one needs to have a good agreement about follow-ups when they run, as they often do (I generally play that they cannot declare 2H or below undoubled, and that our side's first double after the penalty double is take-out oriented....if advancer has no stomach for defending, he runs from the initial double).

My advice, further, is not to stretch with the penalty double. When I played weak notrumps, I always smiled internally when I heard, as I often did, opponents saying, when finding out our range......'ok, double shows top of their range or better', especially when playing 10-12. While occasionally we'd go for a number, the light doubles often caused advancer to run when he should have passed, and even more often backfired when responder had at least half of the remaining values.

The reality is that when the values are roughly equal between the pairs, the side that gets to 1N first is usually the winner when the hands are balanced. Thus if they open 1N on 12-14 and you have 13, the odds are pretty good that you are in a bad position. Maybe at mps that is an argument for acting...if you're already getting a bad board, being wrong to act only costs you a little. But at imps, this is when disaster threatens, sometimes going for a number against a part-score or (even worse) going for a number when they would be down is a normal game.

So my advice is that, especially at imps, have a penalty double in your arsenal, and have it start 'above' their range...against 12-14 I suggest 15, but obviously some 14's are worth it: Axx KQJ9x Ax xxx is a double for sure.

I have tried various defences: the one I have used for some years now has double as penalty, 2C majors, 2D/H transfers, 2S minors, and 2N a good hand with a long minor, suggesting a source of tricks and some values in case partner can take a shot at 3N. When we have a 14 count or so with a 6 card minor, the odds are that we don't want to defend 2M, doubled or undoubled, very often so we avoid that via the 2N bid, which of course partner often pulls to a p/c 3C. Note that 3N often makes our way on fewer than 'normal' hcp, because one can often play nearly double-dummy on these auctions.

by a passed hand, in the unlikely event one wants to get into the auction, or in balancing seat, the only change is that double shows a good, in context, long minor, and 2N shows a 2N opening hand.
'one of the great markers of the advance of human kindness is the howls you will hear from the Men of God' Johann Hari
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#5 User is offline   nige1 

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Posted 2019-May-30, 05:50

A basic version of so-callled Multi-Landy/Pottage was suggested by Eric Crowhurst, 50 years ago.. Pescetom's modern treatment is an improvement.

After (1N) - ??
  • _X = ART. 4 M & 5+ m or strong hand.
  • 2 = ART Ms.
  • 2 = ART. 6+ M.
  • 2M = NAT 5+ bid M 4+ m.
  • 2N = ART. ms.
  • 3m = PRE.

After (1N) 2 - ??
  • 2 = ART. equal length or 2 s & 3 s.
  • 2+M = NAT Preference.
  • 2N = ASK

After (1N) 2 - ??
  • 2 = P/C..
  • 2 = P/C. 3+ s.
  • 2N = ASK

After (1N) 2M - ??
  • 2N = ASK.
  • 3m = P/C.
  • 3+M = NAT.

Similarly after Pescatom's Raptor-like (1N) X - ??
  • 2 = P/C for m
  • 2 = ASK for M
  • 2M = NAT.

Commonly, the Crowhurst bid occurs immediately over the
1N opener. In that context, here is a 2N=ASK structure that attempts to right-side some of the resulting contracts

After (1N) - 2 - 2N - ??
  • 3 = MIN. equal or longer
  • 3 = MIN. longer.
  • 3 = MAX. longer.
  • 3 = MAX. longer.

After (1N) - 2[DI[ - 2N - ??
  • 3 = MIN. 6+ s.
  • 3 = MIN. 6+ s.
  • 3 = MAX. 6+ s.
  • 3 = MAX. 6+ s.

After (1N) - 2M - 2N - ??
  • 3 = MIN. equal or longer.
  • 3 = MIN. longer.
  • 3 = MAX. equal or longer.
  • 3 = MAX. longer.

Similarly, after (1N) - X - 2 - 2M - 2N = ??
  • 3 = MIN. .
  • 3 = MIN. .
  • 3 = MAX. .
  • 3 = MAX. .


You can use a the same simple consistent ASK structure after Multi 2, Lucas 2M, Michaels, and other 2-suited bids.
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#6 User is offline   pescetom 

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Posted 2019-May-30, 06:16

Thanks to all.

Yes, probably East should have considered double even with these agreements. He knows West is not fond of lies about majors, but there are plenty of ways it could work out.

As it turned out, West had 7 HCP and East could make 2 which was PAR, or 2-1 which was still better than letting South play 1NT which makes. So a penalty double would have worked out badly in this case and even if it made them run to 2 that also makes.

It looks like there is all the same a case for changing double to penalty over weak NT, but that would also mean rethinking the other bids too: we currently meet weak NT so rarely that it's probably not worth it yet.
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#7 User is offline   Tramticket 

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Posted 2019-May-30, 06:36

MikeH largely has the right view in my opinion.

I would be a little more prudent in using the penalty double against a 12-14 no trump. For me a direct seat double usually shows 16+ HCP but I will lower this to 15+ if I have a good lead. I would need to have a very good lead to want to double with a 14 count. Since I will not be on lead in the protective seat, I tend to keep the double up to strength. On the given hand I would be content to pass. I do know pairs who play systems in the direct seat, but natural in 4th seat - with this approach you might venture a 2 over-call at pairs (I probably wouldn't)

There are two reasons why you need a penalty double. The first is obvious - to extract a penalty. But a more subtle (and perhaps more important) reason is that it limits the range of your over-calls. I imagine that you might over-call 2M with a suitable 5-5 shape 8-count at the right vulnerability. But if you do so, you cannot expect partner to co-operate in finding game when you make the same call with a 19-count. [Note that this is much less of a problem defending against a strong NT - you almost never hold the 19-count and if you do, partner is not co-operating anyway!].
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#8 User is offline   Flem72 

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Posted 2019-June-05, 08:11

IMHO, when it goes 1N-P-P to you, and the opps know what they are doing, you are better off passing. With < 6, responder is already running and with 11ish, s/he is bidding. Why get into an auction at the 2 level when opps hold, on balance 20+HCP? That said, it seems that most who allow a balancing double reduce the HCP requirement to about a K less than the direct seat requirement.
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