[shevek]

Assume 2♦ = weak 2 in a major, with or without strong options.
Our style is simple enough

X = takeout of spades
2♥ = takeout of hearts

Has worked okay. Not so much interested in hearing about more complex methods.
What about swapping the meanings? So

X = takeout of hearts
2♥ = takeout of spades

Is that demonstrably worse?
I can see one small advantage of switching

If (2♦) - 2♥ is short in spades, partner can maybe pass on a terrible hand with a few hearts.

[apollo1201]

That is probably why it was made like it is. As you don’t want partner to pass when you have a monster hand that could be short in H too.

In my country the most popular defense is X = 13-15 (semi) balanced or 18+, an informative and economical /non-commital bid to warn partner you have some values (he is not obliged to bid should responder pass, as they probably don’t wanna play in 2DX), the rest being natural. Only downside is that if you have a TOX of a major, you have to wait the next turn, and sometimes you will be Xing at the level 3.

[shevek]

apollo1201, on 2018-November-12, 01:37, said:

That is probably why it was made like it is. As you don’t want partner to pass when you have a monster hand that could be short in H too.

Actually, that is an argument in favour of X = tko of hearts.
Partner will double with a big 4-0-4-5 or similar and bid 2♥ with a huge 0-4-4-5. Won't be pleased if you pass but at least you will have a fit of sorts.

[ggwhiz]

I'm in ACBL land so we don't play against multi as often and definitely prefer something simple.

For us 2♥ and 2♠ are both takeout of the bid suit and double is a strong notrump. That preserves penalty options as all of the other doubles I've seen are too wide ranging for partner to confidently wield the axe.

[nige1]

Over (2♦=multi) ??, I like ..

• Double = ART 12-15 or 19+ BAL or T/O (Lebensohl responses).
• 2♥/2♠ = NAT 12+ 5+ cards (Reduces the likelihood of playing in their suit).
• 2N = BAL 16-18.
• 3♣/3♦.= NAT 6+ cards.
• 3♥/3♠ = NAT GF Sets suit.
• 3N = NAT to play might be based on long suit.

[msjennifer]

Sir,we use the following: IN THE 2ND SEAT (1):2H shows HEARTS and minors.(2) 2S shows SPADES and minors.(3)2NT shows 17/19 and good playing strength(4)3C/D are NATURAL (5)DOUBLE shows a fairly balanced hand and 13/17 HCP and Lebensohl responses if openers partner passes.If he bids 2H/S then Natural responses with 8/10 HCP and double with 11+HCP AND with 0/7 Pass. However I must admit we do not face many opponents who play the Multi 2D.

[Cyberyeti]

nige1, on 2018-November-12, 12:00, said:

Over (2♦=multi) ??, I like ..

• Double = ART 12-15 or 19+ BAL or T/O (Lebensohl responses).
• 2♥/2♠ = NAT 12+ 5+ cards (Reduces the likelihood of playing in their suit).
• 2N = BAL 16-18.
• 3♣/3♦.= NAT 6+ cards.
• 3♥/3♠ = NAT GF Sets suit.
• 3N = NAT to play might be based on long suit.

This is more or less what we play.

The stuff to add to this would be:

pass and then 3m shows the other major also
double and double again can be agreed to be various things, but you need to know which

I've not come across what the OP plays, which should be worrying as in the UK we probably see the multi most often.

[maartenxq]

shevek, on 2018-November-12, 00:33, said:

Assume 2♦ = weak 2 in a major, with or without strong options.
Our style is simple enough

Hi,

Your style has one major disadvantage, with one of your take out bids you cannot punish opponents. Simple dutch pairs play direct X good take out with both Ms, pass waiting. With a short major you double opponents on second round when you know their suit.

Maarten Baltussen

[Tramticket]

nige1, on 2018-November-12, 12:00, said:

Over (2♦=multi) ??, I like ..

• Double = ART 12-15 or 19+ BAL or T/O (Lebensohl responses).
• 2♥/2♠ = NAT 12+ 5+ cards (Reduces the likelihood of playing in their suit).
• 2N = BAL 16-18.
• 3♣/3♦.= NAT 6+ cards.
• 3♥/3♠ = NAT GF Sets suit.
• 3N = NAT to play might be based on long suit.

Cyberyeti, on 2018-November-13, 03:38, said:

The stuff to add to this would be:

pass and then 3m shows the other major also
double and double again can be agreed to be various things, but you need to know which

Yes to all of this. I would add that any defence needs to consider actions in 4th seat and 6th seat, as well as 2nd seat.

For example we play that a double in 4th seat of the sequence (2♦), Pass, (2M) shows either a take-out double or a penalty double - relying on opener to clarify which for you.

We play that 2NT in second seat is natural (16-18), but 2NT in sixth seat is unusual for the minors.

We also play leaping Michaels over the 2♦ opening (4m = strong two suited in the suit bid + a major) - but in the interests of full disclosure, it has never come up since we added it to the card!

[sfi]

shevek, on 2018-November-12, 00:33, said:

Not so much interested in hearing about more complex methods.

How's that working out?

On the original question, If I have a game-going hand that should start with a double I need to choose the option that allows me to bid my suit naturally next. So if I have long hearts, I start with a takeout of spades and then bid hearts strongly. What I don't want is partner getting the bright idea to pass 2H with a weak hand and hearts, since now we miss game or slam.

Me, I play it that way because partner likes it and it works well enough. But I wouldn't want to switch it for that reason.

[GrahamJson]

For amusement’s sake I offer the following problem I had a few weeks back. RHO opens a multi and I held AKQ10x void QJxxx AKx. I passed, expecting 2H to be passed round to me enabling me to cue bid 3H, which must show something like this. To my surprise LHO bid 2S, showing heart support, and this is followed by two passes. Now what? (Not surprisingly we were red vrs green).

[Cyberyeti]

GrahamJson, on 2018-November-13, 09:52, said:

For amusement’s sake I offer the following problem I had a few weeks back. RHO opens a multi and I held AKQ10x void QJxxx AKx. I passed, expecting 2H to be passed round to me enabling me to cue bid 3H, which must show something like this. To my surprise LHO bid 2S, showing heart support, and this is followed by two passes. Now what? (Not surprisingly we were red vrs green).

Well I'd have bid 4♦ first time, now you're a bit stuffed, 3N ?

[apollo1201]

Cyberyeti, on 2018-November-13, 11:09, said:

Well I'd have bid 4♦ first time, now you're a bit stuffed, 3N ?

Yep, immediate bidding if you can show a 2-suiter. Or the power double if allowed. The « nice » plan of cue-bidding 3H works only if opps behave well enough and do not reach the 3-level. LHO could well be 34xx or 33xx and the next turn you are to bid it is 3 or even 4H in front of you, not 2.
Now having passed I am stuck and partner will have to figure out why the hell I remained silent and now come to life with 3NT.

[GrahamJson]

I must say that I don’t understand an immediate 3D bid. In most defences it is natural, not showing a two suiter, let alone specifically a S/D one. After all, at that point in the auction RHO’s suit is still unknown.

Well, I figured that LHO must have some values for his 2S bid, so partner probably held very little. Also it looked like everything would be breaking badly. On that basis I settled for bidding 3D. I considered passing, but didn’t think I would get rich in several down in fifties (shame we weren’t playing Dixon, in which case a double now would be penalties) whilst 3D gave partner a chance to speak in the unlikely event that he did have values. As it happened 3D just made, with 3NT being hopeless, so we gained on the board (I think 3NT was bid at the other table in an unopposed auction). RHO had Jxxxx in spades and little else. We were well up with only a few boards to play so oppo were trying to mix things up a bit.

[shevek]

sfi, on 2018-November-13, 08:44, said:

How's that working out?

On the original question, If I have a game-going hand that should start with a double I need to choose the option that allows me to bid my suit naturally next. So if I have long hearts, I start with a takeout of spades and then bid hearts strongly. What I don't want is partner getting the bright idea to pass 2H with a weak hand and hearts, since now we miss game or slam.

Me, I play it that way because partner likes it and it works well enough. But I wouldn't want to switch it for that reason.

I guess the advantage of bidding 2♥ as takeout of spades is that partner can pass; while the disadvantage is that partner can pass.
Well done in Canberra

[sfi]

shevek, on 2018-November-14, 03:02, said:

I guess the advantage of bidding 2♥ as takeout of spades is that partner can pass; while the disadvantage is that partner can pass.
Well done in Canberra

Indeed - much pithier than the way I phrased it.

And thanks. We had hope for a while yesterday, but a pair of slams on consecutive boards went a long way to doing us in.

[shevek]

sfi, on 2018-November-14, 05:39, said:

Indeed - much pithier than the way I phrased it.

And thanks. We had hope for a while yesterday, but a pair of slams on consecutive boards went a long way to doing us in.

That 6♦ was tough. Club lead at the other table.
On a heart lead, maybe ♠A, ♣J.
That's an interesting trump suit. In isolation, best line is a first round hook, catering for stiff ♦Q with West.

As to the "slam" that followed, surely it's "Don't ask, don't tell."

[sfi]

shevek, on 2018-November-15, 05:41, said:

As to the "slam" that followed, surely it's "Don't ask, don't tell."

Indeed. If I start asking questions about that one, teammates might bring up a couple of hands I'm not overly keen to rehash.