[Tramticket]

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After your two level response, partner's reverse is forcing to game and you bid 2NT to show the diamond stop. How do you interpret partner's 3♦ bid of the fourth suit?
(a) Bidding out her shape, showing diamonds (and by inference club shortage).
(b) Showing shortage in diamonds.
Does the bid show extras? Or is it just probing for the best game contract?

Do you agree with the 3♠ bid? Would you now pass over 3NT?

[FelicityR]

If a 2♦ bid to your 2♣ response is not forcing to game, I expect partner to be 4540 shape for her 3♦ bid. If partner was 6-5 in the majors then she would have bid 3♥ surely?

I agree with 3♠ bid. Now that she's bid 3NT I would pass.

[Tramticket]

 FelicityR, on 2018-June-14, 03:42, said:

If a 2♦ bid to your 2♣ response is not forcing to game ...

No, forcing for one round only.

[Cyberyeti]

Would you expect partner to rebid 2♦ or 2♠ with a reverse strength 4540 ?

[Tramticket]

 Cyberyeti, on 2018-June-14, 05:15, said:

Would you expect partner to rebid 2♦ or 2♠ with a reverse strength 4540 ?

I've not really thought about it before - hence the question. But in general it seems reasonable to bid 2♠ rather than risk losing the spade suit as the fourth suit.

I am a passed hand in this case and will probably hold a maximum 10 HCPs, so I would probably respond 1♠ rather than 2♣ if I had four spades (I would only respond 2♣, bypassing a four-card spade suit if I was worth two bids). So there is an argument that she might rebid 2♦ with that shape.

Anyway yes, she was 4-5-4-0.

[FelicityR]

I'm interested why you have posted this, Tramticket? Do you feel that too much bidding gave the opponents the opportunity to find a killing defence. Or should you have been in a ♦ game instead?

Even if you can respond 1NT instead of 2♣ with the North hand, South is probably always going to show her shape with a 4540 hand, hoping to find a ♦ fit. Maybe bidding 3♠ gave too much information to the opponents as you are unlikely to want to play in a Moyse (4-3) fit. Raising to 3NT directly would have given the vulnerable opponents a possible dilemma on the lead.

Either way, when you don't show a ♠ suit at the one level, partner already knows that with your 2♣ bid you're unlikely to have a 4 card ♠ suit, and already knows that you have 10-11 HCPs, so actually bidding 2♦ as a one-round force seems preferable than reversing to 2♠ as I see it.

[Cyberyeti]

 FelicityR, on 2018-June-14, 07:41, said:

I'm interested why you have posted this, Tramticket? Do you feel that too much bidding gave the opponents the opportunity to find a killing defence. Or should you have been in a ♦ game instead?

Even if you can respond 1NT instead of 2♣ with the North hand, South is probably always going to show her shape with a 4540 hand, hoping to find a ♦ fit. Maybe bidding 3♠ gave too much information to the opponents as you are unlikely to want to play in a Moyse (4-3) fit. Raising to 3NT directly would have given the vulnerable opponents a possible dilemma on the lead.

Either way, when you don't show a ♠ suit at the one level, partner already knows that with your 2♣ bid you're unlikely to have a 4 card ♠ suit, and already knows that you have 10-11 HCPs, so actually bidding 2♦ as a one-round force seems preferable than reversing to 2♠ as I see it.

I think I'd rebid 2♦ passed hand or not.

I'd need to see the hand opposite as we have an added wrinkle with a big not necessarily balanced 2N rebid available.

[ggwhiz]

We play this type of auction (3rd suit by opener) as showing 4-5-3-1 shape in this case with extras in the very good 15+ range. Sure it can be 4-5-4-0 or the rare 4-6-3-0 but it's a lot less common and usually just a pleasant surprise.

We also play 2/1 but even since you don't your 2♣ bid might still be strong enough to put you in the slam zone. This one isn't and without a promise of a 4th diamond in our style I would bid 3nt with the north hand. Shows your minimum, protects the ♣K (tougher for them to lead one too) and playing spades on a 4-3 where the 4-card suit may have to ruff clubs really early does not appeal.

[Tramticket]

 Cyberyeti, on 2018-June-14, 07:50, said:

I think I'd rebid 2♦ passed hand or not.

I'd need to see the hand opposite as we have an added wrinkle with a big not necessarily balanced 2N rebid available.

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I posted the hand because I alerted the 3♦ call and partner corrected before the opening lead and explained that it was natural - this was a clue that we had different expectations!

The hand is a nightmare and no game contract is making - so not a disaster in the end - but a sequence that I wanted to clarify for the future.

[Cyberyeti]

Avoiding being doubled looks like a win, 4♥/5♦ might be

[gszes]

congratulate your partner for excellent bidding and apologize for not bidding 4d over 3n since your hand has gotten worse as the bidding has progressed. Now if you had !C KT9x -------------

[Tramticket]

 gszes, on 2018-June-14, 17:47, said:

congratulate your partner for excellent bidding and apologize for not bidding 4d over 3n since your hand has gotten worse as the bidding has progressed. Now if you had !C KT9x -------------

A contract of 4♦ is no picnic. Deep Finesse suggests it makes, but you have to make some good guesses to do so, I doubt that it makes on any normal line. And this assumes that 4♦ is passable ...

[dsLawsd]

Independent of system, 3 ♦shows extra strength and probes for the best fit or level (assuming 2NT shows about 11-12). 3♠seems rght as a Moysian could well be the best spot.

3 ♦might show a control but only after a fit has been discovered.

[nekthen]

 gszes, on 2018-June-14, 17:47, said:

congratulate your partner for excellent bidding and apologize for not bidding 4d over 3n since your hand has gotten worse as the bidding has progressed. Now if you had !C KT9x -------------

No! Berate partner for not bidding 2♦. Nothing like enough playing strength to reverse especially when partner has shown values in your void. I guess you have to bid 3♦ though I admire pass. Hopefully, partner has the wit to pass.

[ggwhiz]

The difference between south rebidding 2♦ or 2♠ is a simple methods trap.

2♠ is clear if playing 2/1 and when you are not 2♣ MAY be a good hand or not MAY have a real club suit or not and if you bid 2♦ you will never catch up to a possible slam.

The only apology needed is from the card gods to north AND south.

[HardVector]

As far as what the bids show, I would think that it should be shape showing with 4540 or 4531 questioning where you should play. I would expect reverse values as with 4540 and minimal I think 2d would be better, and 4531 and minimal 2n or 2h would be better. Partner can check back to find the spade fit.

After 3d, I actually disagree with 3s, I'd bid 3h. Partner is not going to suddenly think that you've found a 3rd heart, but if partner is questioning playing in a suit or NT, then the expectation is that clubs are getting ruffed and I'd rather that was with a 5 card suit instead of 4. The quality of the spades is better, but the shape is equivalent (7 card fits). I wouldn't pull 3n, partner's bidding was suggesting and your clubs are just good enough to have some expectations of being able to make 9 tricks.

[hamish32]

Here i tend to play 2!S as a game force given partner has bid 2!C so 16 is enough. We might afterall be looking for the best game.

However introducing !D is a lot stronger in my book. Yes it shows a !D fragment so 4531 or better but why bid 3!D when partner has bid 2NT the only reason is to make a slam try. If partner raised to 3NT it masks the best lead a little now a !D lead is more likly as the unbid suit.

On this hand all roads lead to 3NT so it not a big deal but 3!D should be 19+

[Caitlynne]

The 3D bid is bidding out shape and probing for the best game. That much is unequivocally clear. Only a sick mind might think that 3D shows shortness in the absence of a specific agreement.

The bigger issue is the 2C response. It is misguided on a modest 4 card suit at the 2 level since it is non-forcing and partner might (and clearly should) pass with a hand like Axx, KQxxx, Kxx, xx.

[Cyberyeti]

 Caitlynne, on 2018-June-16, 10:48, said:

The bigger issue is the 2C response. It is misguided on a modest 4 card suit at the 2 level since it is non-forcing and partner might (and clearly should) pass with a hand like Axx, KQxxx, Kxx, xx.

Not sure what planet you're on.

It's absolutely normal in Acol for it to be a bad 4 card suit, and it's unconditionally forcing. Partner would probably have opened 1N on the hand you give and never passes as 2♣ would be the normal response with a 3334 11 count.