[el mister]

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Club game matchpoints. 4♣X - 1 did not make us rich, in fact it was a cold bottom. Reasonable calls, or is there clear culpability for not bidding 4S (either N or S)?

[Tramticket]

S#@t happens! Well done opps.

[Cyberyeti]

I would always double with the S hand, I'd bid 4♠ some of the time with the N hand so if there's any blame it goes to N but not much.

[ggwhiz]

Cyberyeti, on 2018-May-16, 06:22, said:

I would always double with the S hand, I'd bid 4♠ some of the time with the N hand so if there's any blame it goes to N but not much.

Same here and I'm willing to bet others faced a 3♣ pre-empt instead of 4.

[el mister]

ggwhiz, on 2018-May-16, 08:33, said:

Same here and I'm willing to bet others faced a 3♣ pre-empt instead of 4.

Yeah I thought a zero was a bit harsh on this deal, but RHO was the strongest player in the room, so maybe judged the level of the preempt better than others.

[apollo1201]

More North. When South promises inv+ values, some Hs and probably some back-up plan / tolerance for D/S, the good 6-bagger and the 2 Aces would suggest bidding on. Anyway 4C forces us to do sth as the bidding space is seriously lowered.
That reminds me of a good player who opened green vs red 3m in front of me, I had 16 and tried (not too confidently) 3NT. Other room was pass, 1NT opening, Responder with 4 queens didn’t think he was worth an invite at red, but both déclarers made 9 tricks...

[apollo1201]

More North. When South promises inv+ values, some Hs and probably some back-up plan / tolerance for D/S, the good 6-bagger and the 2 Aces would suggest bidding on. Anyway 4C forces us to do sth as the bidding space is seriously lowered.
That reminds me of a good player who opened green vs red 3m in front of me, I had 16 and tried (not too confidently) 3NT. Other room was pass, 1NT opening, Responder with 4 queens didn’t think he was worth an invite at red, but both déclarers made 9 tricks...

[wank]

north, obviously

[broze]

Wouldn't even consider pass as North - south could have a void club!

[Cyberyeti]

broze, on 2018-May-16, 16:04, said:

Wouldn't even consider pass as North - south could have a void club!

Could equally be 0553

[gszes]

4s seems to stand out. The suit will play well opposite xx K or T and the fact that over half of our power is located in our longest suit greatly diminishes our defensive potential while raising our offensive potential. The negative x virtually guarantees at least some reasonable tolerance for spades when it was so easy for responder to bid a forcing 4d or 4h. Good suits do not happen that much so bidding them when they do happen would seem to be a good idea when there is doubt about what else to do.
4c might have been a magic bullet so kudos if it was a non universal action but suppressing a suit that is this good (especially a major suit) will most likely be a bad idea in the long run (especially at imps).

[wank]

Cyberyeti, on 2018-May-16, 17:13, said:

Could equally be 0553

if he's doubling with this shape then he's got a pretty fat hand so 4s is fine

[rmnka447]

North

First of all, what is the agreement about the double of 4 ♣? If you play negative doubles through at least 4 ♣, then South's bid is fine. If you play them as negative only through 3 ♠, as many people do, then I think South has to just hitch up his/her slacks and bid 4 ♦.

Let's assume it's played as negative. At the 4 level, it has to be made on a pretty decent hand. I think the distribution and tolerance for opener's suit favor bidding with this hand. Once the double is made, I think North has to bid 4 ♠. North's values are really in his/her long suit, so aren't necessarily that useful on defense. Like the man says, bid what you've got. If South persists over 4 ♠, North should preference to ♦.

[ahydra]

Agree with those saying North should bid 4S.

ahydra

[msjennifer]

Almost all players play negative double upto 3S only unless previously discussed.Personally I would bid 4S ,which many will consider absurd, with the South hand.Unless previously discussed 4Cx Is a penalty double.

[cherdano]

msjennifer, on 2018-May-17, 01:14, said:

Almost all players play negative double upto 3S only unless previously discussed.Personally I would bid 4S ,which many will consider absurd, with the South hand.Unless previously discussed 4Cx Is a penalty double.

No it's not.

[Cyberyeti]

msjennifer, on 2018-May-17, 01:14, said:

Almost all players play negative double upto 3S only unless previously discussed.Personally I would bid 4S ,which many will consider absurd, with the South hand.Unless previously discussed 4Cx Is a penalty double.

You seem to have no comprehension of what goes on outside your immediate circle, negative to 7♥ is not uncommon, negative to at least 4♥ is normal here.

[Cyberyeti]

wank, on 2018-May-16, 20:07, said:

if he's doubling with this shape then he's got a pretty fat hand so 4s is fine

Not necessarily by any means, amd even if he has the likely 5-2 spade break may well scupper you anyway.

[dsLawsd]

Both should bid 4S. Otherwise a negative double with such poor suits seems wrong at the 4 level.

Perhaps having an agreement that 4 D shows 5-5 or better with Spade tolerance would be worth considering.

[nekthen]

I vote North. The double should have some spade tolerance at this level. North could have a weak NT hand with a 5 card spade suit (assuming SAYC) and may go down in 4S but 4C may even make in that scenario. If playing Acol, worst case scenario is a 4333 15 count when N presumably passes and hopes for the best.