[cherdano]

Just got back from my 3rd time playing in a Camrose. I had quite a bit of fun, but I also got things wrong (surprise!). I'll be posting some of these.

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The bidding goes
[2Di]* (P) 3♥ (P)
P (X) P (3N)

2♦ now shows a bad weak two in hearts, maximum a bad 8 count, minimum QJTxxx and out. Always a 6-card suit.

Partner leads ♥J, promising QJ9 or better in hearts. Plan your defense.

[nullve]

Spoiler

I'll play for a layout like

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So I'll encourage, win the next heart and shift to a low diamond.

[mikeh]

Neat hand.

I'd ideally like partner to switch to diamonds are trick 1, but am not sure of our methods. In the spirit of Kit Woolsey articles at BW, I'd say that I should discourage hearts, and expect partner to realize that the only suit where I am in danger of being endplayed in is diamonds, so he switches to that suit.

But (as per a KW theme) I encourage hearts.

I assume partner continues a low heart, denying the spade K (with which he should play the highest heart he can afford, the Q from QJ10, and the 9 from QJ9).

Declarer has to allow me to hold the King. Now I have to guess....play a low diamond, hoping partner has the J (note that declarer will play the J from his own Jx), or play a heart, hoping partner has a club stop.

I think there are more club stopper holdings than there are hands on which he holds the diamond J, so I play a heart.

Note that I am dead if declarer something like Kxx Axx J10x QJxx, since he can afford to test clubs, then cash all 4 winners, forcing me to pitch a diamond and 2 spades, and can later duck a diamond into my hand when I have no exits left. This is one compelling reason to discourage hearts at trick 1.

[Phil]

Most constructions have us beating this. The relative hands where our play makes a difference are:

1. 3=3=3=4 with the missing pictures. 2S, 1H, 1D and 4C and we are getting endplayed for 9 (we cannot keep spades in the endgame if declarer times the hand out). Here, we need a diamond shift from partner's side after two hearts but we need to force a diamond shift. So, ♥K at T1, heart.

2. 2=3=3=5 or 3=3=2=5. On this layout we need partner holding the ♦J. But the line under #1 works just as well.

Now with specifically 3=3=2=5 and partner holding the ♦Ten, oddly the diamond shift needs to come from our side but that seems rather obscure.

[mikeh]

Phil, on 2018-April-09, 18:54, said:

Most constructions have us beating this. The relative hands where our play makes a difference are:

1. 3=3=3=4 with the missing pictures. 2S, 1H, 1D and 4C and we are getting endplayed for 9 (we cannot keep spades in the endgame if declarer times the hand out). Here, we need a diamond shift from partner's side after two hearts but we need to force a diamond shift. So, ♥K at T1, heart.

2. 2=3=3=5 or 3=3=2=5. On this layout we need partner holding the ♦J. But the line under #1 works just as well.

Now with specifically 3=3=2=5 and partner holding the ♦Ten, oddly the diamond shift needs to come from our side but that seems rather obscure.

One of us is missing something

As declarer with Jx in diamonds, having lost 2 hearts tricks and guaranteed to lose a spade, which diamond do you play when RHO switches to a low diamond?

Low does no good if LHO has Qx or Kx, since rho will drop your Jack when he wins the spade Ace, so I don't see why he wouldn't play the J

I did miss the heart King at trick 2 which hopefully will force the diamond switch. Also you discount partner holding a club stop when declarer has 5 of them, as he almost surely does. I'm not sure why, but on your defence of the heart K at trick one, and a heart continuation, it doesn't matter so the overtake is clearly (imo) correct.

[MrAce]

mikeh, on 2018-April-09, 20:49, said:

....., it doesn't matter so the overtake is clearly (imo) correct.

Yup

[Tramticket]

I'm not a Camrose level player, but my thoughts were:

- It feels right to overtake and play back a heart. Declarer is ducking the first two rounds and partner will not continue hearts, since he can't have an entry.
- It looks from our side like partner will play a diamond. But will it be so clear to partner holding (say) ♦JX to switch to the ♦J? I can't see any way to help partner in that? A diamond from our side will often be wrong.
- The problem seems to come after partner switches to a low diamond. We presumably have to play ace and a low spade and hope that declarer can't run nine tricks (hasn't got a five-card club suit).

[nullve]

Tramticket, on 2018-April-10, 02:44, said:

I'm not a Camrose level player, but my thoughts were:

- It feels right to overtake and play back a heart. Declarer is ducking the first two rounds and partner will not continue hearts, since he can't have an entry.
- It looks from our side like partner will play a diamond. But will it be so clear to partner holding (say) ♦JX to switch to the ♦J? I can't see any way to help partner in that? A diamond from our side will often be wrong.
- The problem seems to come after partner switches to a low diamond. We presumably have to play ace and a low spade and hope that declarer can't run nine tricks (hasn't got a five-card club suit).

"partner will not continue hearts since he can't have an entry"

Sometimes pretending to have an entry is the best defence.

"It looks like from our side like partner will play a diamond."

Why?

"The problem seems to come after partner switches to a low diamond. We presumably have to play ace and a low spade and hope that declarer can't run nine tricks (hasn't got a five-card club suit)."

On top of that, declarer is much more likely to have 5 than 4 clubs.

[rhm]

I see essentially 2 scenarios, where our defense will matter:

1) declarer can establish 7 tricks in the black suits. Here partner needs the diamond jack. A premature switch to diamonds will not be good. We need 2 heart tricks first. Otherwise declarer will go up with the diamond ace.
2) declarer has only 6 tricks in the black suits but the jack ten in diamonds. In this case we require a diamond switch from partner to avoid a later strip end-play. You have no safe discards on the clubs if partner continues hearts.

In case 2 it is essential that we get a diamond switch from partner. He will not find the diamond switch if we encourage. But in case 1 we need two heart tricks first
A good player might ask why you overtook the first heart instead of encouraging a heart continuation. This should point him to a diamond switch

The 2 layouts, against which the heart king caters for, are:

case 1)

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case 2)

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Rainer Herrmann

[Phil]

mikeh, on 2018-April-09, 20:49, said:

One of us is missing something

As declarer with Jx in diamonds, having lost 2 hearts tricks and guaranteed to lose a spade, which diamond do you play when RHO switches to a low diamond?

Low does no good if LHO has Qx or Kx, since rho will drop your Jack when he wins the spade Ace, so I don't see why he wouldn't play the J

I did miss the heart King at trick 2 which hopefully will force the diamond switch. Also you discount partner holding a club stop when declarer has 5 of them, as he almost surely does. I'm not sure why, but on your defence of the heart K at trick one, and a heart continuation, it doesn't matter so the overtake is clearly (imo) correct.

The low diamond from my side is clearly a minor theme to the hand and is addressing an obscure layout. I agree declarer should pop from Jx, but we aren't beating it unless partner has a slow club winner.

[nullve]

rhm, on 2018-April-10, 05:53, said:

A good player might ask why you overtook the first heart instead of encouraging a heart continuation. This should point him to a diamond switch

Unless they play Reverse Herrmann. But I love the idea.

[cherdano]

Good discussion. Just to correct one point - discouraging at trick one wouldn't work if declarer is 3=3=2=5 with ♠K and ♣Q, as he could go up with the ace and set up his spade tricks.

At the table I got this wrong (encouraging at trick one, then playing a 3rd heart at trick three, playing declarer not to have 5 club tricks). I think it's interesting to ask why I got this wrong. Partly, of course, because I am dumb. But other reasons are:

- Playing to quickly at trick one.
- I didn't know partner's style well enough. In the OP I made the conditions simpler than they were at the table - I didn't know whether partner would open a 6322 with QJTxxx and a random Jack on the side. But I was quite sure he would open with 64, or with the club queen - so I played for declarer not to have 5 club tricks.
- I did realise I could get endplayed if declarer is 3334 with ♦JT - but I didn't realise how automatic it would be for declarer get it right, since he has to start with setting up spades and then has the full count of the hand.

[cherdano]

Tramticket, on 2018-April-10, 02:44, said:

I'm not a Camrose level player,

Clearly you didn't spend much time watching the Vugraph last weekend

[Tramticket]

cherdano, on 2018-April-10, 09:53, said:

Clearly you didn't spend much time watching the Vugraph last weekend

No dragged round curtain shops ...!