BBO Discussion Forums: Double preemptive 3 - BBO Discussion Forums

Jump to content

Page 1 of 1
  • You cannot start a new topic
  • You cannot reply to this topic

Double preemptive 3

#1 User is offline   euclidz 

  • PipPipPipPip
  • Group: Full Members
  • Posts: 250
  • Joined: 2015-February-24
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:UK

Posted 2017-July-04, 13:21

With no partnership agreement . . . .

Partner (second seat) doubles openers preemptive 3, what do you expect he is holding?

Is such a double 'generally' accepted to be a penalty double or a take-out double?
0

#2 User is offline   Stephen Tu 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 4,095
  • Joined: 2003-May-14

Posted 2017-July-04, 14:44

Takeout. I think penalty doublers at 3 level should have been extinct for a long time by now. More interesting is double of 4h/4s, there are probably a handful of penalty doublers left.
1

#3 User is offline   wank 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 2,866
  • Joined: 2008-July-13

Posted 2017-July-04, 14:44

It's takeout
0

#4 User is offline   The_Badger 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 1,125
  • Joined: 2013-January-25
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:England
  • Interests:Bridge, Chess, Film, Literature, Herbal Medicine, Nutrition

Posted 2017-July-04, 15:09

It is more than generally accepted as takeout: it is takeout. Except on the very, very rare occasion where you have a good holding in opener's suit and little else (and that happens once in a blue moon).
0

#5 User is online   smerriman 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 4,009
  • Joined: 2014-March-15
  • Gender:Male

Posted 2017-July-04, 18:58

View PostThe_Badger, on 2017-July-04, 15:09, said:

Except on the very, very rare occasion where you have a good holding in opener's suit and little else (and that happens once in a blue moon).

Just to be clear, even in that case, the double was still for takeout :)
1

#6 User is offline   steve2005 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 3,161
  • Joined: 2010-April-22
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Hamilton, Canada
  • Interests:Bridge duh!

Posted 2017-July-05, 03:51

View Postsmerriman, on 2017-July-04, 18:58, said:

Just to be clear, even in that case, the double was still for takeout :)

I once opened 3H with Kxxxxx, 2H unavailable.
LHO opponent after long think and muttering doubled with AQJT9xx. I guess that is how you do a penalty double. Didn't work.


Sarcasm is a state of mind
1

#7 User is offline   GrahamJson 

  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Full Members
  • Posts: 560
  • Joined: 2014-October-11

Posted 2017-July-05, 04:39

View Poststeve2005, on 2017-July-05, 03:51, said:

I once opened 3H with Kxxxxx, 2H unavailable.
LHO opponent after long think and muttering doubled with AQJT9xx. I guess that is how you do a penalty double. Didn't work.

Didn't he close his hand, put them face down in front of him and write 3HX on his score card? That's the usual was of making a penalty double in this position.
0

#8 User is offline   msjennifer 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 1,366
  • Joined: 2013-August-03
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:Variable private
  • Interests:Cricket,Photography,Paediatrics and Community Medicine.

Posted 2017-July-06, 01:12

A mandatory wait of 10 seconds was the rule for the pre-emptors LHO who could then double or bid anything else.I do not know if the rule still exists.Director can then take appropriate action whenever he is called and the hesitations or closing the carts etc are explained to him .I think at least nine out of ten treat a double of 3 level preempt as a take out double.
0

#9 User is offline   fourdad 

  • PipPipPipPip
  • Group: Full Members
  • Posts: 268
  • Joined: 2013-March-08
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:South Florida
  • Interests:Bridge, Football, Coaching, Family, Writing

Posted 2017-July-06, 04:08

"with no agreement"

sigh...
0

#10 User is offline   GrahamJson 

  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Full Members
  • Posts: 560
  • Joined: 2014-October-11

Posted 2017-July-06, 08:56

View Postmsjennifer, on 2017-July-06, 01:12, said:

A mandatory wait of 10 seconds was the rule for the pre-emptors LHO who could then double or bid anything else.I do not know if the rule still exists.Director can then take appropriate action whenever he is called and the hesitations or closing the carts etc are explained to him .I think at least nine out of ten treat a double of 3 level preempt as a take out double.

In the U.K. It is necessary to show a Stop card before any jump bid, requiring a pause of at least ten seconds before next hand calls. And next hand is required to at least pretend to think, although that can perhaps be waived if it is a second round jump in a non competitive auction, e.g. 1S-1NT-3NT.
0

#11 User is offline   Kaitlyn S 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 1,092
  • Joined: 2016-July-31
  • Gender:Female

Posted 2017-July-06, 09:02

View Postfourdad, on 2017-July-06, 04:08, said:

"with no agreement"

sigh...
Many enjoy using BBO's "Help Me Find A Game" feature to play here. How many of those do you think have discussed the meaning of a double of 3H?

I don't discuss it because I don't think I have to; I presume everyone plays takeout. (Admittedly, I'm guessing over 4H or 4S but it happens seldom enough that I think there are more important agreements to discuss in 30 seconds.)

But this is BBO and "without agreement" might very well be normal in those rooms.

In fact, I have played in several competitive team matches on BBO and have never once discussed that auction with a first-time partner.
0

#12 User is offline   RD350LC 

  • PipPipPipPip
  • Group: Full Members
  • Posts: 154
  • Joined: 2016-April-22

Posted 2017-July-06, 09:28

View PostThe_Badger, on 2017-July-04, 15:09, said:

It is more than generally accepted as takeout: it is takeout. Except on the very, very rare occasion where you have a good holding in opener's suit and little else (and that happens once in a blue moon).

My view is that with that kind of hand, I would pass, and take my 50cents per trick. It is much preferred to use a double for takeout.
0

#13 User is offline   GrahamJson 

  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Full Members
  • Posts: 560
  • Joined: 2014-October-11

Posted 2017-July-06, 10:09

View PostRD350LC, on 2017-July-06, 09:28, said:

My view is that with that kind of hand, I would pass, and take my 50cents per trick. It is much preferred to use a double for takeout.

Indeed. The point is it is either penalty or take out, the latter being the norm. It cannot be both, depending on what hand you happen to hold at the time.

Having said that I have seen many times on BBO players doubling after a long pause when they hold AKJx in trumps but doubling quickly with x and four cards in the unbidden suits.
0

#14 User is offline   Kaitlyn S 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 1,092
  • Joined: 2016-July-31
  • Gender:Female

Posted 2017-July-06, 10:40

This thread has given me an idea for a future "Bidding Problems for I/N players" :)
0

#15 User is offline   johnu 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 5,025
  • Joined: 2008-September-10
  • Gender:Male

Posted 2017-July-06, 12:15

View PostGrahamJson, on 2017-July-05, 04:39, said:

Didn't he close his hand, put them face down in front of him and write 3HX on his score card? That's the usual was of making a penalty double in this position.


In the "old" days, you bid a thunderous double, and then asked, "My lead?" With bidding boxes, you take all the doubles out of the box and fan them on the table.
0

#16 User is offline   mycroft 

  • Secretary Bird
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 7,408
  • Joined: 2003-July-12
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Calgary, D18; Chapala, D16

Posted 2017-July-07, 07:43

Standing on the chair has gone out of fashion?
When I go to sea, don't fear for me, Fear For The Storm -- Birdie and the Swansong (tSCoSI)
0

#17 User is offline   Kaitlyn S 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 1,092
  • Joined: 2016-July-31
  • Gender:Female

Posted 2017-July-07, 10:23

View Postmycroft, on 2017-July-07, 07:43, said:

Standing on the chair has gone out of fashion?
Many of the people that used that method have aged to the point where this is physically difficult.
2

#18 User is offline   nige1 

  • 5-level belongs to me
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 9,128
  • Joined: 2004-August-30
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Glasgow Scotland
  • Interests:Poems Computers

Posted 2017-July-07, 11:50

Over pre-empts from 2 to 4, most modern players double for take-out. Fewer values are needed for balancing -- in the protective position. Nowadays, over 4, double is usually action -- high-cards -- not a trump stack -- but often left in for penalties.

In the past, players played a competitive or optional double over pre-empts (Take-out with something in opponent's suit).

Before that, double was usually penalty. For take-out, players used Fishbein (artificial bid of the cheapest suit), better minor, cheaper minor, or an artificial 3N.

0

#19 User is offline   sfi 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 2,576
  • Joined: 2009-May-18
  • Location:Oz

Posted 2017-July-07, 17:42

View Postjohnu, on 2017-July-06, 12:15, said:

In the "old" days, you bid a thunderous double, and then asked, "My lead?" With bidding boxes, you take all the doubles out of the box and fan them on the table.


A partner many years ago had the subconscious habit of saying "Huh? Double." when the opponents were in real trouble. To his credit, he was embarrassed when someone pointed out what he was doing.
0

Page 1 of 1
  • You cannot start a new topic
  • You cannot reply to this topic

1 User(s) are reading this topic
0 members, 1 guests, 0 anonymous users