[ahydra]

Playing 2C = 23+ or GF (3 weak twos so no other strong bid), with 2C-2D relay/negative and other responses NAT positive showing a good 5+ suit. What is the standard meaning of the 4C bid in these sequences?

2C-2H; 2S-3H; 4C
2C-2H; 4C

and by responder
2C-2H; 2S-3H; 3S-4C

Thanks,

ahydra

[spotlight7]

 ahydra, on 2017-July-05, 18:28, said:

Playing 2C = 23+ or GF (3 weak twos so no other strong bid), with 2C-2D relay/negative and other responses NAT positive showing a good 5+ suit. What is the standard meaning of the 4C bid in these sequences?

2C-2H; 2S-3H; 4C
2C-2H; 4C

and by responder
2C-2H; 2S-3H; 3S-4C

Thanks,

ahydra

1) natural 4C bid, how else do you get to a club contract?

2) splinter raise of Hs. 3Cs would be forcing and natural here.

3) natural 4C bid again.

[Stephen Tu]

I don't think the second one should be splinter raise of hearts, personally. I'd rather it just set clubs as trumps and demand cue bids.

I just don't see much value in the 2c opener showing a splinter, with these hands can just bid 3h and elicit cue bids, eventually probably bid RKC. The problem with splinter is it kind of relinquishes captaincy, and partner of the 2c bidder has such a small percentage of the combined assets that they are unlikely to be able to count tricks, to know where the potential losers are. We don't really want responder bidding RKC over the splinter, if he returns to 4h we haven't learned much, and if he cues we were probably better off starting the cues at a lower level.

It's just not a situation where it's likely we want to judge whether or not to go on beyond 4h based on responder having wastage in the splinter suit or not, responder is unlikely to have much in values outside of trumps to begin with, and 2c with pos response and big fit is practically slam force to begin with, even with some wastage in the spl suit, I don't see point in wasting space.

Spl by responder to 2c opener after something like 2c-2d-2h-4c is far more useful IMO.

[The_Badger]

First sequence is opener's second suit, ♣s

Second sequence is a solid suit, as Stephen says, and sets trumps. Actually any jump by a 2♣ opener after a positive or negative or waiting response should be a solid suit and sets trumps.

Third sequence might be one by agreement. I actually don't like 4♣ as a second suit here. The positive 2♥ responder had an opportunity after opener's 2♠ rebid to bid his second suit ♣. In an experienced partnership I would take 4♣ here as an advanced cue bid in ♣ agreeing ♠ as trumps, now that opener has shown at least 6+

p.s. In none of these sequences is 4♣ Gerber

[spotlight7]

If opener bid and rebids clubs, that would not virtually 'set' trumps?

[The_Badger]

 spotlight7, on 2017-July-06, 06:25, said:

If opener bid and rebids clubs, that would not virtually 'set' trumps?

True if he rebids 3♣, but a jump rebid of 4♣ virtually does, however, it doesn't mean the partnership cannot find another contract utilising that specific information that opener's ♣ suit is solid.

As I have written previously, SAYC in principle does allow a partnership to reside in a final contract of three of a major, or four of a minor, if through exchanging information, opener finds partner with a bust, and opener does not have any good fit with partner. The 2♣ bid is not unconditionally forcing to game as many believe (but many players do play it as such - their choice).

However, a jump rebid of 3♥, 3♠, 4♣, 4♦ after a 2 ♣ opener is unconditionally forcing, even if partner has a bust.

This is my understanding of the situation (and what I have read in quite a few books), but I respect that other players may play their sequences differently these days, especially with a 2♦ waiting bid.

[ahydra]

Thanks all. It was this hand that prompted the post:

---

I was West, only played with this partner twice before so no detailed agreements. I am used to a style where 4-level bids are cues so thought 4C was a cue for hearts while partner intended it as natural. The 6NT bid was, admittedly, a gamble based on little more than the fact it was matchpoints. Unfortunately it didn't pay off as they led a diamond for -4.

What should I call after 4C? Or should partner rebid 3S?

ahydra

[spotlight7]

 The_Badger, on 2017-July-06, 09:32, said:

True if he rebids 3♣, but a jump rebid of 4♣ virtually does, however, it doesn't mean the partnership cannot find another contract utilising that specific information that opener's ♣ suit is solid.

As I have written previously, SAYC in principle does allow a partnership to reside in a final contract of three of a major, or four of a minor, if through exchanging information, opener finds partner with a bust, and opener does not have any good fit with partner. The 2♣ bid is not unconditionally forcing to game as many believe (but many players do play it as such - their choice).

However, a jump rebid of 3♥, 3♠, 4♣, 4♦ after a 2 ♣ opener is unconditionally forcing, even if partner has a bust.

This is my understanding of the situation (and what I have read in quite a few books), but I respect that other players may play their sequences differently these days, especially with a 2♦ waiting bid.

Responder bid 2C-2H so game is 100% forced and slam very likely.

SAYC cannot use 2C-2D-2M-3C* as a second negative?


Most players on BBO open 2C without the normal values.

[spotlight7]

 ahydra, on 2017-July-07, 20:07, said:

Thanks all. It was this hand that prompted the post:

---

I was West, only played with this partner twice before so no detailed agreements. I am used to a style where 4-level bids are cues so thought 4C was a cue for hearts while partner intended it as natural. The 6NT bid was, admittedly, a gamble based on little more than the fact it was matchpoints. Unfortunately it didn't pay off as they led a diamond for -4.

What should I call after 4C? Or should partner rebid 3S?

ahydra

4 level bids are cues only in certain auctions.


After 2C-positive reply, the auction should be forcing to 4N or 5 of a suit.

Now opener can raise to 4Hs 'forcing' and still bid 4Cs as a natural suit 'without' a heart fit.


Cuebidding 4D* in this auction with Kxx opposite a possible 4 card suit is a bit much.


I would prefer 4C-4S since you denied 3Ss already.


How did 6N appeal here? Opener appears to have

0-1 Hs and his bidding shows at least 6Ss and 5Cs.


You might want to check out 5N* as 'pick a slam.'