[Kungsgeten]

In our current NT system we have full shape relays available after Stayman. A thing we have discussed is having a way to sign off in a minor after Stayman (if holding a weak hand with a minor and a four card major). So I've tinkered a bit and here's the basic result. The relays are no longer full shape, but lets you know if opener is 4-4, 4333 or 5332.

1NT--
2C = Stayman. Not 4 hearts INV (unless 4+ spades). Includes 6+D weak/strong without a major, and 5-5 minors GF.
2D = Transfer. Can be four hearts if INV.
2H = Transfer, 5+ spades.
2S = Range ask or clubs. GF with 5+C and 4H is possible.
...2NT/3C = Min/max.
......3C = To play.
......3D = GF with 5+C and 4H. Opener can show clubs support with 3S.
......3M = GF with clubs and shortness.
......NT = To play.
......4C = GF with clubs, no shortness.
......4D = GF with clubs, short diamonds.
2NT+ = Can be whatever. I intend to use 2NT as nullve's Puppet Stayman, 3m as natural INV and 3M as (31)(54).

Opener use classic rebids over Stayman, rebidding 2H with 4-4 majors.

1NT--2C; 2D---
2H = INV with 5-4 majors (either way).
2S = Range ask or clubs (if GF then 5+C and 4S).
...2NT/3C = Min/max.
......Pass/3C/3NT = To play.
......3D/H = Shortness with 5+C and 4S.
......3S = GF with 5+C and 4S, doesn't want to show shortness.
2NT = Shape ask.
...3m = 5 card suit.
...3H = 4-4 minors.
...3S = 3-3-3-4
...3NT = 3-3-4-3
3C = Diamonds, GF (could pass 2D with weak hand).
3D = GF 5-5 minors.
3M = Smolen.

1NT--2C; 2H---
2S = Range ask / clubs (promises 4 spades).
...2NT/3C = Min/max, not 4-4 majors. 3C now to play, suit bids GF with 5+C and 4S.
2NT = Shape ask.
...3m = Natural, 4-4.
...3H = 5 hearts.
...3S = Natural, 4-4.
...3NT = 3-4-3-3
3C = Diamonds. Pass 3D or follow-up with GF bids.
3D = GF 5-5 minors.
3H = INV.

1NT--2C; 2S---
2NT = Puppet to 3C. Has a 5+ minor weak/strong.
...3C = Ok.
......Pass = Weak.
......3D = To play.
......3M = GF with diamonds and short major.
......3NT = GF with 5+C and 4S.
......4C = GF with diamonds and short clubs.
......4D = GF with diamonds, no shortness.
3C = Shape ask.
...3D = 4 diamonds.
...3H = 4 clubs.
...3S = 5 spades.
...3NT = 4-3-3-3
3D = 5-5 minors.
3S = INV.

Nothing special after transfers really, but after transfer to hearts we use 2NT as INV with 4 hearts, while 2S is INV with 5 hearts or GF 5-5 majors.

[nullve]

Kungsgeten, on 2016-December-30, 02:52, said:

1NT--
2C = Stayman. Not 4 hearts INV (unless 4+ spades). Includes 6+D weak/strong without a major, and 5-5 minors GF.
[...]
2NT+ = Can be whatever. I intend to use 2NT as nullve's Puppet Stayman, 3m as natural INV and 3M as (31)(54).

[...]

1NT--2C; 2S---
2NT = Puppet to 3C. Has a 5+ minor weak/strong.
...3C = Ok.
......Pass = Weak.
......3D = To play.
......3M = GF with diamonds and short major.
......3NT = GF with 5+C and 4S.
......4C = GF with diamonds and short clubs.
......4D = GF with diamonds, no shortness.
[...]
3D = 5-5 minors.

How do you bid non-slammish GF hands with 4M5D(31)/(40)? In particular, if you respond 2♣ with 3451, how do you proceed over 1N-2♣; 2♠?

[Zelandakh]

nullve, on 2016-December-30, 07:08, said:

How do you bid non-slammish GF hands with 4M5D(31)/(40)? In particular, if you respond 2♣ with 3451, how do you proceed over 1N-2♣; 2♠?

It is "your" Puppet Stayman but would he not respond 2NT with that hand?

[Kungsgeten]

You would probably use puppet, but you could use 2C too. In that case you'd have to relay over the 2S response and then make a decision. We do not not use a jump to 3NT as anything special (and it is not "needed" as natural) so perhaps one could use that.

[nullve]

Two ideas with a view to freeing up 3♦ over 1N-2♣; 2♠-2N; 3♣.

Idea #1:

1N-?:

2♣: as in OP, except can also be WK w/ 3-S3-H6+C¹
(...)
2♠: range ask (with bal. INV w/o 4c M) or INV w/ long minor
...2N = MIN
...3♣ = MAX, rejects INV w/ 6+ C
...3♦ = MAX, accepts INV w/ 6+ C, rejects INV w/ 6+ D
...3♥+ = accepts all invites
(...)
3♣ = WK, 3-S3-H6+D / GF, 1-suited w/ 6+ C²
...3♦ = forced
......P = WK
......3♥+ = GF, 1-suited w/ 6+ C
3♦ = GF, 4H5+C³
(...)

The point is that Responder is no longer forced to use Stayman on weak hands with 3-S3-H6+D.

¹ Then Responder will follow up with 2♠(range ask) over 1N-2♣; 2R and with 2N(puppet to 3♣) over 1N-2♣; 2♠
² Or covering the same hands as 3M/4m over 1N-2♠; 2N/3♣ in OP.
³ Same as 3♦ over 1N-2♠; 2N/3♣ in OP.


Idea #2:

Suppose

* Stayman is never used on weak hands with 3-S3-H6+D (the point of Idea #1)
* 2♥ over 1N-2♦ denies 4+ H;
* 3♣ over 1N-2♦; 2♥ is not only a transfer to diamonds but effectively a puppet to 3♦.

Then an alternative on weak hands with 4H6+D is to transfer to hearts(!) and then rebid

* 3♣(puppet to 3♦) over 1N-2♦; 2♥;
* 3♦(retransfer to H) over 1N-2♦; 2♠+.

One obvious downside is that the partnership can no longer stop in 2♥ (after 1N-2♣; 2♥-P) on these hands, but at least 3♥ after, say, 1N-2♦; 2♠-3♦(retransfer); 3♥-P will be Law-protected. (Opps will have 16+ black cards between them, hence either 8+ spades or 9+ clubs.)

This post has been edited by nullve: 2016-December-31, 13:00

[Kungsgeten]

What would you want to do with 1NT-2C; 2S-2NT; 3C-3D? GF diamonds with short clubs? I think there's many possible tweaks, depending on what you want out of the NT structure. Many NT structures exclude Puppet Stayman (use regular Stayman instead, or 2C as puppet) and others exclude invitational hands with long minor. An interesting approach would be to play transfers after both Stayman, and after major suit transfers. If we give up on the shape ask bids:

2C = Stayman, includes INV with 5 spades, excludes INV with 4 hearts.
2D = Transfer. May be INV with 4 hearts.
2H = Transfer. Not INV with 5 spades
2S = Range ask (INV to game/slam) or GF with 6+ clubs.
2NT = Puppet Stayman, including (31)(54) and (30)(55).
3C = Diamonds, weak/GF
3D = GF with 6+ minor and short other minor.
3M = GF 5-5 minors, short major.

1NT-2C; 2D---
2H = INV 5+ hearts, 4 spades.
2S = Range ask or clubs + major (weak/GF)
2NT = INV 5 spades.
3C = Diamonds + major (GF)
3D = 4441 with short black suit. (short red suit transfers to clubs and bids 3D).
3M = Smolen

1NT-2C; 2H---
2S = Range ask or clubs + spades (weak/GF).
2NT = INV with 5 spades.
3C = Diamonds + spades (weak/GF)
3D = Hearts support?

1NT-2C; 2S---
2NT = Clubs + hearts (weak/GF)
3C = Diamonds + hearts (weak/GF)
3D = Spades support?

1NT--2D; 2H---
2S = INV with 4/5 hearts (similar to Scanian 1NT method)
2NT+ = Transfers.

1NT--2H; 2S---
2NT+ = Transfers

1NT--2S; 2NT/3C---
3C = To play
3D = CONFIT (see Heeman NT structure; asks for controls and fit).
Suit = GF with 6+ clubs.

[Zelandakh]

Kungsgeten, there is a simple problem with all schemes of this type, which is easily illustrated by looking at the 2♠ response to Stayman. You just do not have enough space left over to handle an invite as well as both minors. Your current solution involves removing the invite but the most logical solution when you think about it is to remove a minor. I thought you were heading in this direction in the OP but your latest scheme is a step back.

Instead, consider removing the club-based hands that you cannot handle from 2♣. In your original scheme, that probably just means weak hands with hearts and longer clubs, which is not a huge loss, though I believe you will find some additional refinements once you start along this line of thinking.

[Kungsgeten]

I do not quite understand what you mean Zel. What kind of invite are you talking about? I'm guessing the invite with 4 hearts, which is in the transfer to 2H. Now if you want to play "transfers after transfers" (as suggested in my previous post) then 1NT-2D; 2H-2S would have to handle invitational hands with both 4 and 5 hearts, which isn't ideal (you'll play 2NT on a 5-3 heart fit when opener have a minimum). An alternative could be to use 1NT-2NT as invitational with 4 hearts, but then you lose something else.

[Zelandakh]

Sorry, I forgot you farmed out the invitational 4♥ hands. I probably need to sit and take some time to go through what you have more thoroughly if I can find a suitable moment. As it happens I do play second round transfers after 2♦ but do so slightly differently to your suggestion:-

1NT - 2♦; 2♥
==
2♠ = INV (natural 2NT rebid); or 4+ clubs GF; or slammy 1-suiter
2NT = 5♥-4♠, INV
3♣ = 4+ diamonds, GF
3♦ = 5+ spades, GF
3♥ = 6+ hearts, INV
3♠, 4m = splinters

While the hands being dealt with are slightly different, perhaps you could adapt this multi-way 2♠ to your needs and use the 2NT rebid to differentiate between the 4 and 5 card invites.

[Kungsgeten]

Excellent idea Zel (and obvious since 2S is INV/clubs everywhere else too).

[straube]

They've started a thread today on BW about this idea of using the 2S rebid as size ask.

[nullve]

straube, on 2017-January-09, 17:31, said:

They've started a thread today on BW about this idea of using the 2S rebid as size ask.

Kungsgeten did.

[straube]

nullve, on 2017-January-09, 19:12, said:

Kungsgeten did.

LOL. Good idea Kungsgeten.

[awm]

For the most part you're only gaining here when responder has a 4M-6m weak hand (you do change the auction tempo on good hands with this shape, which can win or lose depending on what's happening). These hands exist but they are pretty rare. In exchange you are losing the ability to play 2♠ on a five card spade invite (you rebid 2NT on this hand type), as well as messing up your heart fit finding on declined invitational hands (1NT-2♦-2♥-2♠ is now not specific about 4/5 hearts so you will play some 2NTs when a 5-3 heart fit would be better). It sees like you are losing on two really common hand types in exchange for gains on two much rarer ones? I guess the magnitude of gains might save you (at IMPs anyway) except that opponents are also much more likely to intervene when you have one of these 4M-6m hands? And you also create a lot more opportunities for lead directing doubles by opponents (all those artificial 2♠ bids). It doesn't see like a great tradeoff to me.

[Kungsgeten]

awm: I think we're gaining on weak hands with 4M and 5+m. It doesn't need to be 6+m, I think 44(50) and (43)(51) could gain too. I agree that 2♠ as INV is better than 2NT. I do not think that 2♠ as range ask after Stayman is that vulnerable to lead directing doubles, since responder most times will have spades (but if having 4 hearts and 5+ clubs and a GF hand, after opener's 2♦ response, they've gotten a lead directing bid compared to a natural 3♣). The invitational heart fits are fixed with Zelandakh's improvement of using 2♠ as range ask/clubs after a transfer to hearts (with the downside that opener can not confirm a 4-4 club fit).

The Scanian NT method uses minor suit transfers after Stayman with slammish minor one suiters, which is another approach if you want less focus on the 4M 5+m GF hands. They use the following response structure:

1NT--
2C = Stayman, includes a lot of hands.
2D = Hearts. 5+ suit or INV with 4 hearts (including 4-4 majors)
2H = Spades. 5+ suit weak/GF or INV with 4 spades.
2S = Range ask/sign off in diamonds/sign off both minors/GF both minors
2NT = Asking weak doubleton, balanced GF or INV with 6+m.
3C = To play.
3D = Three-suiter with a short minor.
3M = Three-suiter with short major.