[eagles123]

uncontested 1S 1N 3H 4m

what is 4m

Thanks

Eagles

[billw55]

hmmm, edited for further thought

[mycroft]

"It depends." If you believe that "there are no new suits at the 4 level", which is a good meta-agreement (make sure to note the exceptions), this is a cue for hearts (I am assuming you play that 3♥ sets a game force). If you believe that there has to be a place to put x xx QJTxxxxx xx (assuming you don't pass 1♠ hoping to get out in 2♦, or 3 at the worst), then this is the way to bid it. But you'll be stuck for a forcing bid with the 2=5=4=2 12-count.

You'll sense a bias in my response. I wish I could convince my partners that my bias is right. Sometimes strong club systems have an advantage (but when I hold this hand it goes 1♣-(2♣)-2♦-(4♣) and I haven't shown *either suit* yet...)

[wank]

cuebid is better, but natural is not illogical.

one which confuses most people: what's the difference between 3S and 4S (over 3H, same auction)?

[eagles123]

ok, so say the non-illogical natural meaning, how do you set hearts and make a slam try?

[wank]

well you don't. you just have to raise to 4. hence cuebid is better. but of course you lose something. if you have x xxx ax qjxxxxx you'd like to offer clubs without committing and passing 4H.

[wanoff]

wank, on 2016-December-13, 16:02, said:

cuebid is better, but natural is not illogical.

one which confuses most people: what's the difference between 3S and 4S (over 3H, same auction)?

It's probably no more confusing than 4m.
If you chose 4m to be a cue then you might also play 3s as a cue. Or you could play it as showing 3 hearts. Alternativly you might want it to show 2 spades and open to 3nt.
Then 4s would be 2 spades and not open to 3nt.

[SteveMoe]

4♣ agrees ♥ and shows a control in ♣. Senseless to be natural or offer to play after partner's J/S showing both Majors. More senseless to be weak with length (not right to show a new suit a the 4-level). With bad non-fitting hands, 3♠ is always available as a false preference.

[FrancesHinden]

It's not "senseless" to be natural, it's actually quite handy, particularly if you aren't playing anything artificial on this auction.

It depends on your style of 2/1
If you play an Acol-type system where 1NT is strictly limited to less than 9, you might as well play it as natural because you can't really have a slam on (partner didn't open 2C or an Acol 2, and you responded 1NT) while you can have a lot of clubs and a very weak hand.

If you play a more American system wereh the 1NT bid is forcing and can be up to a 12 count, then it's probably more useful to play it as a cue because it's more likely you've got a good 4H bid than a natural 4m bid.

[Mkgnao]

wank, on 2016-December-13, 16:02, said:

cuebid is better, but natural is not illogical.

one which confuses most people: what's the difference between 3S and 4S (over 3H, same auction)?

Well, I play 1NT as NF and up to 11 and never with fit. Not playing Gazzilli, with my regular partners 3H shows a GF hand with 4+H so I assume 1S-1NT; 3H-3S would show a doubleton S and 3-H (4m being cues for H) and 1S-1NT; 3H-4S would show a splinter for hearts (though it is terribly high and you bypass the 'safe' 4 level).

[SteveMoe]

FrancesHinden, on 2016-December-18, 11:06, said:

It's not "senseless" to be natural, it's actually quite handy, particularly if you aren't playing anything artificial on this auction.

Frances, I plead guilty for use of stronger words than suitable here. Perhaps sub-optimal is a better choice.
Playing 4m as natural after partner has shown a very strong hand with 9+ cards in the Majors fails if it is an attempt to play 4m. So a very weak hand with very long m shoudl pass or give a false preference to ♠ at the 3-level. This scores better at MP and BAM, and might even earn an IMP at IMPs. Not stopping in 4m only loses in the rare circumstance where 3M/OM, 4M/OM and 5m cannot be made. That's a pretty steep parlay. Nay, the value (expected yield) for having this be a cue bid for OM is too great compared to the yield from successfully stopping in 4m. I do agree that 4m then 6m is appealing, but that hand would hardly start with a (forcing) 1NT response.

Regards, Steve

[Stephen Tu]

SteveMoe, on 2016-December-19, 22:35, said:

Frances, I plead guilty for use of stronger words than suitable here. Perhaps sub-optimal is a better choice.
Playing 4m as natural after partner has shown a very strong hand with 9+ cards in the Majors fails if it is an attempt to play 4m. So a very weak hand with very long m shoudl pass or give a false preference to ♠ at the 3-level.

How about 4m as natural and forcing, looking for the best game? I've certainly had deals where 5m was the only making game after this start.

[Phil]

Part of the problem is the nature of a vague 3!h. If it can be 5-4, then a minor suit fit is still possible. If 55, less so, and 4m has more utility as a cue.

[SteveMoe]

Stephen Tu, on 2016-December-20, 02:01, said:

How about 4m as natural and forcing, looking for the best game? I've certainly had deals where 5m was the only making game after this start.

Yes, i suppose the 4m bid could be flexible enough to do that, but really that's a narrow window (see Phil's point). If i have a hand that can make game only in ♣ then we both know what bid I should use. If I need to find a magic 5-3 fit in a balanced hand to make 3♣ and 3N, 4M don't make, I'll take my lumps. The upside is the ability to show control(s) for M.

[P_Marlowe]

I prefer cue for hearts, it is simple.

This meaning does still make some sense, if the 4m bid comes from a passed
hand, the position does not affect the meaning.


The cog meaning is certainly handy, but:
Given the problem, that 3H may be 5+/4+, and that the responding hand may or
may or may not have secondary support for openers suit, it is not clear, how
opener is supposed to make a sensible decison, that it is wise to bypass 4M,
this is a pure guessing game, unless you add some add. properties to the hands,
that can bid 4m.

And option for showing some sort of SI: You could say, that bidding 3S is a heart
raise and 4H is secondary spade support, ... if you are able to remember.
This may free up 4m to be natural.
No idea, if this works.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[Trinidad]

Forcing and natural... as long as my next call is Pass, a mere preference to one of partner's majors, a non jump in NT or a non jump in my minor. All other rebids show a cue for hearts.

Rik

[Kaitlyn S]

Several years ago, the Bridge World magazine had a Master Solvers' club problem where the auction was 1S (P) 1NT (3H) 4D P ?

where the hand was a huge fit in diamonds with the CA.

A year or so later they had the problem 1S (P) 1NT (3H) 4D (P) 5C (P) ?

Of the 32 experts, 9 of them managed to play in 5C with a huge club fit playing with themselves (they thought 5C was a control bid the first time and natural the second time.)

So it's good to have an agreement but I don't think that either interpretation is "right".