[smerriman]

---

How would you reach the cold grand slam here? I was playing Gib's system, but not particular interested in Gib, just general ideas.

Depending on your choice of rebid, I seem to get to the same spot:

2♣ - 2♦ - 2♠ - 3♠ - 4NT - 5♦ - 5♥ - 6♥ - 6♠
2♣ - 2♦ - 2NT - 3♣ - 3♠ - 4♥ (spade raise) - 4NT - 5♦ - 5♥ - 6♥ - 6♠

I can't seem to bid anything more than 6♠. Partner can count the Q♥ as an extra trick, but doesn't know if we're missing an ace.

[Cyberyeti]

We would not use this type of auction but:

2♣-2♦-2♠-4♣(splinter)-4♦-4♥-4N-5♦(1)-5♥(Q♠?)-6♥(Q♠, already shown the K♥, so this shows Q)-7♠/N the only risk of bidding 7N is that pard has KQxx, KQx, xxxxx, x

[P_Marlowe]

Your 2nd auction looks ok, ..., up to 6H.

Playing sepcific kings ask, a commmon schema would be, that the answer
to the 5H inquiry is 5NT, showing the Queen of trumps and the king of
hearts.
This allowes South to asks some more question, e.g. 6H as some kind of
last train, and the Queen of Hearts / the Single in Club should be enough
to accept.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[Zelandakh]

Well I would like to bid it as:

1♣ = 15+ nat/bal or 18+ any
... - 1♥ = 4+ spades, GF
1♠ = relay, usually 18+
... - 1NT = 4+ hearts
2♣ = relay
... - 2♦ = 44(32) or 3-suited
2♥ = relay
... - 2♠ = 44(32)/(4441)
2NT = relay
... - 3♠ = 4441, min
4♣ = relay
... - 4♥ = 2 controls
4♠ = relay
... - 5♠ = ♠KQ, ♥KQ, no ♦Q
7NT

But I am assuming you are looking for ideas within a natural context. There we can perhaps use a couple of tricks:

2♣ = big balanced or GF
... - 2♦ = positive
2♥ = hearts or bigger balanced
... - 2♠ = relay
2NT = bigger balanced
... - 3♣ = major ask
3♠ = 5 spades
... - 4♥ = 3+ spades, SI
4NT = accept slam try and (1 or) 4 key cards
... - 5♦ = king ask
5NT = ♦K, no ♥K
... - 6♦ = how does it look in diamonds? (SSA)
6♥ = AK doubleton
... - 7♠

Unfortunately I do not know of a way both to locate both the doubleton diamond and the ♥J so getting to 7NT is difficult in this method. But the question was only about reaching a grand, not the optimal contract.

[wank]

Rebidding 2s is terrible

[Fluffy]

The wrong hand is taking control in both of your biddings. On first one you also skip the 4-level for no reason.

[Cyberyeti]

wank, on 2016-October-25, 09:07, said:

Rebidding 2s is terrible

I agree, but was taking forward one of OP's auctions in a better way than he did.

I also agree with Fluffy that the big hand needs to ask and that you need to use the 4 level.

Our auction would not be a thing of beauty, but would get there:

2♣-2N (10+ no 5M, no biddable 5m, F4N)
3♣(stayman)-3♥
3♠-4♣(cue agreeing spades, 3N which is forcing would be bid otherwise)
4♦-4♥
4N-5♦
5♥-6♥(showed the K at the 4 level, so this is Q)
7N

[Zelandakh]

Cyberyeti, on 2016-October-25, 09:39, said:

I also agree with Fluffy that the big hand needs to ask and that you need to use the 4 level.

You misunderstood. The big hand is asking in both of the OP's examples. Fluffy is saying that the unknown hand (Responder) ought to be asking.

[Cyberyeti]

Zelandakh, on 2016-October-25, 09:51, said:

You misunderstood. The big hand is asking in both of the OP's examples. Fluffy is saying that the unknown hand (Responder) ought to be asking.

Wasn't clear to me at the time who he was responding to.

The big hand has too much to tell unless you can make a lot of space and have VERY sophisticated methods (and a crucial J that you'll never show), all he needs to know is ♥KQxx, ♠KQx(x).

The hand where responder asks is KQxx, Kxxx, QJxx, x where he has something opener can't find out about and needs to know if opener has K♦ and/or Q♥/K♣.

[nullve]

With pretty standard agreements, maybe:

2♣-2♦ (22+ bal. or GF \\ waiting)
2N-3♣ (22-24 bal. \\ Puppet Stayman)
3♠-4♥ (5 S \\ 3+ S, SI)
4N-5♦ (RKC \\ 1 KC)
5♥-5N (trump Q ask \\ trump Q + interest in grand + reason not to bid 6♣/♦/♥)
6♣-6♥ (♣K \\ ♥K, no ♦K)
7♠-P

?

[mike777]

nothing fancy here.

2c=2d
3nt=7nt

[johnu]

mike777, on 2016-October-25, 10:41, said:

nothing fancy here.

2c=2d
3nt=7nt

There are only 3 small problems with your sequence.

1. 3NT shows 25-26 HCP while opener only has 23 HCP
2. Even if opener had 25 HCP, the opponents could still have an ace as their 4 points
3. You have no idea if a grand slam is better than a finesse

Other than that, this is a fine example of double dummy bidding to get to a laydown 7NT (as long as spades aren't 4-0 offside)

[Cyberyeti]

nullve, on 2016-October-25, 10:19, said:

With pretty standard agreements, maybe:

2♣-2♦ (22+ bal. or GF \\ waiting)
2N-3♣ (22-24 bal. \\ Puppet Stayman)
3♠-4♥ (5 S \\ 3+ S, SI)
4N-5♦ (RKC \\ 1 KC)
5♥-5N (trump Q ask \\ trump Q + interest in grand + reason not to bid 6♣/♦/♥)
6♣-6♥ (♣K \\ ♥K, no ♦K)
7♠-P

?

Why are you bidding 7♠ which is no play opposite the KQxx, Kxx, QJ, xxxx partner could have and even 6 is not laydown

[nullve]

Cyberyeti, on 2016-October-25, 17:05, said:

Why are you bidding 7♠ which is no play opposite the KQxx, Kxx, QJ, xxxx partner could have and even 6 is not laydown

Because

* my hand was already limited to 22-24 hcp with 5 S (and likely 5(332) shape) when partner invited grand;
* he seems to be fishing for the ♦K.
* he knows I can only have a marginally better hand than this;

[smerriman]

Thanks all.

Most RKCB references I've found have 5NT denying a king, but it makes sense to save space by jumping to 6 trumps without a king, using 5NT to show some sort of stronger hand (either the K of hearts as P_Marlowe says, or more general as per nullve).

Fluffy, on 2016-October-25, 09:24, said:

The wrong hand is taking control in both of your biddings.

I can't see how to get to a point North would be able to + know to do so.

Fluffy, on 2016-October-25, 09:24, said:

On first one you also skip the 4-level for no reason.

Mainly because playing first round controls, I couldn't see how adding 4♣ - 4♠ could help anyone - if anything, it's going to make partner more likely to think I'm missing an ace.

I guess if you allow second round controls, 4♣ - 4♥ would give me the heart king info slightly earlier, if that helps (such as partner being able to show the Q of hearts during the trump queen ask as Cyberyeti suggests).

[SteveMoe]

1♣(16+) - 1♥(8-11, not 5+♠)
1♠ - 2♠
3♣ - 3♥
4♦ - 4♠

-OR-

2♣ - 2♦
2N(22-23) - 3♣(Puppet)
3♠ - 4♥

both leading to:

4N(1430) - 5♣(1 Key)
5♦(♠Q?) - 5♥(Yes with ♥K)
6♣(♣Control?)- 6♥(2nd Round)
7♠

Possible opener chooses 6N instead of 7♠, so responder has to infer that ♥ extras are worth raise to 7♠.

[Kaitlyn S]

If North can ask for key cards after 2C-2D-2NT-3C-3S, he can count 5S, 3H, 2D, 2C and hopes a club ruff gives 13. This assumes 3S shows five and that South shows both kings. If 3S shows four, North needs z fourth heart trick or a second club ruff, and perhaps 3-2 spades.

In many partnerships, 4NT IS quantitative and 4C is clubs. 4H can be RKC but I wouldn't pull it out without discussion. If you have no such agreement, I think it might be tough to get to 7S.

[Winstonm]

Don't know about the auction but after 2C-2D I would rebid 2NT.

[Zelandakh]

Kaitlyn S, on 2016-October-25, 22:55, said:

4H can be RKC but I wouldn't pull it out without discussion.

Much better than this is for 4♥ to be conditional KCB, where Opener bids 4♠ with a minimum and shows key cards with a good hand for slam. This allows both RKCB and slam try hands to be covered. This is one of the tricks referred to in my previous post (along with Kokish, Puppet and SSAs). And yes, you obviously cannot pull such things out without previous discussion and agreement!

[msjennifer]

The way we bid this hand.
1♠ ----4C ( splinter in club suit,4441 hand ,7or less losers)
4NT(RKC)----5D (one key card)
5H (SQ ?)-----6C(SQ and HK)
6H(HQ?)-----6NT(Yes II have it)
7NT----Pass