[Wackojack]

♠Q84, ♥1074, ♦KQ83, ♣K64.
Playing GIB system.
p-p-1♣-p;
1♦-p-1♥-p;
?
Questions:
1. Does the rebid of 1♥ preclude a balanced hand or not?
2. If it could be balanced and less than a 1N opener then would you say that 1N is likely to be the best contract?
3. If I next bid 1N and opener is unbalanced would you expect opener to rebid clubs?
4. What would a 4th suit bid of 1♠ show?

[eagles123]

how high did GIB go lol

[MrAce]

Wackojack, on 2016-September-14, 13:57, said:

♠Q84, ♥1074, ♦KQ83, ♣K64.
Playing GIB system.
p-p-1♣-p;
1♦-p-1♥-p;
?
Questions:
1. Does the rebid of 1♥ preclude a balanced hand or not?
2. If it could be balanced and less than a 1N opener then would you say that 1N is likely to be the best contract?
3. If I next bid 1N and opener is unbalanced would you expect opener to rebid clubs?
4. What would a 4th suit bid of 1♠ show?

1-No. it can be balanced.
2-I would bid 1 NT with this hand over 1♥
3-2♣ over your 1 NT is sign off. If he does not want to play 1 NT he can rebid it. It does not mean extras.
4-Not sure if GIB plays 1♠ as 4th suit here. I think it is natural. But I maybe wrong.

[smerriman]

MrAce, on 2016-September-14, 14:37, said:

4-Not sure if GIB plays 1♠ as 4th suit here. I think it is natural. But I maybe wrong.

GIB plays it as 4SF.

[msjennifer]

Openers hand may be a balanced hand with less than 15 HCP( if opening 1Nt is 15/17) or it may be a two suited one also.The hand given by you must not bid 1 S as partner " may" take it as natural,showing 4S and 4/5 diamonds.The most natural bid which you can ,in my opinion,make is 1NT.With a two suited hand opener,very likely,will rebid 2 Clubs in full confidence,knowing 2+ clubs with you.You may decide your next bid only on hearing what opener bids over your 1NT.

[The_Badger]

smerriman, on 2016-September-14, 14:40, said:

GIB plays it as 4SF.

hi smerriman,

GIB might play it as FSF however, I believe, the majority of players would play it at the one level as natural, a suit. Hmmm...

I wonder if the GIB 2/1 system has been programmed to favour 4 card majors over longer minors when responding?

[helene_t]

it favours majors over supporting partners minor but it would show longer diaminds first in response to 1c. with 44 it would bid the major

[m1cha]

Wackojack, on 2016-September-14, 13:57, said:

♠Q84, ♥1074, ♦KQ83, ♣K64.
Playing GIB system.
p-p-1♣-p;
1♦-p-1♥-p;
?
Questions:
1. Does the rebid of 1♥ preclude a balanced hand or not?
2. If it could be balanced and less than a 1N opener then would you say that 1N is likely to be the best contract?
3. If I next bid 1N and opener is unbalanced would you expect opener to rebid clubs?
4. What would a 4th suit bid of 1♠ show?

1. It may be balanced or not.
2. If you have the hand shown and if you are playing "best hand", then all players have exactly 10 HCP. In that case opener must have a distributional hand, something like x-4-x-6; the best contract should be 2♣ and you should get there by bidding 1NT. If you are not playing "best hand", 1♥ can be anything up to 18 (19?) total points if distributional.
3. Yes. Though probably not with a 5-card suit, I guess.
4. I don't like what GIB does here but anyway - 2♠ is natural and strong, 1♠ is 4SF and strong, and if I am not mistaken 1♠ does not deny 4 spades. If you are weak, you cannot show both ♦ and ♠. (Edit: I was wrong here, 1♠ shows 3- spades, not 4.)

[miamijd]

Wackojack, on 2016-September-14, 13:57, said:

♠Q84, ♥1074, ♦KQ83, ♣K64.
Playing GIB system.
p-p-1♣-p;
1♦-p-1♥-p;
?
Questions:
1. Does the rebid of 1♥ preclude a balanced hand or not?
2. If it could be balanced and less than a 1N opener then would you say that 1N is likely to be the best contract?
3. If I next bid 1N and opener is unbalanced would you expect opener to rebid clubs?
4. What would a 4th suit bid of 1♠ show?

1. The GIB bots could have 3-4 clubs and 4 hearts on this auction. Not all paris play that way. Some pairs rebid 1NT on all balanced hands on this auction, so that 1H would show 5 clubs and 4 hearts or possibly 1444.

The rebid depends on how frequently you bypass diamonds in order to bid a major. The more "up the line" you play, the more you will tend to rebid the major. The more you bypass, the more likely you are to rebid 1NT.

Another factor as to whether to rebid 1NT or 1M is the strength of your hand. Ask yourself how thrilled you would be if partner rebid 2NT. If the answer is "not happy," consider bidding 1NT to slow the auction down (partner won't raise to 2NT with 10, but he might rebid 2NT with 10 if you rebid 1M).

Personally, I like to rebid 1NT with most balanced hands (I play 2-way checkback), but most of my partners aren't enamored with this approach.

2. Depends on partner's hand. 1NT looks like the obvious rebid with your hand.

3. If opener has 64, I would expect some sort of club rebid (2C with a minimum; 3C with an invite).

4. You are a passed hand, so 1S probably ought to show spades. If you weren't a passed hand, then 1S and 2S are both game forces. One shows spades and the other denies spades. If I recall correctly, GIB plays 1S as 3- spades and 2S as 4+ spades. Many players play it the other way around. I don't have a strong preference.

Cheers,
Mike

[MrAce]

Fwiw, Jack did not say he was playing with GIB. He said playing GIB 2/1 system.

I also know this for sure, as his pd was myself, we decided to play GIB cc in order to avoid long system agreements in a team match we just jumped in.

[iandayre]

smerriman, on 2016-September-14, 14:40, said:

GIB plays it as 4SF.

True, and it specifically DENIES 4 Spades. You bid 2S over 1H with a GF hand with 4 Spades.

Of course this is an inconsistent treatment unless playing Walsh, which GIB does not. You could miss a 4-4 S fit if opener is 4423 and responder has 4S, 5D and less than forcing values.

[Wackojack]

---

3NT is a contract that most would want to be in. I cannot see any way that you can reasonably get to 3N whether or not you play any form of check-back, Walsh or Transfer Walsh. Maybe 1♠ 2nd response to show exactly 3 and a modest invite by a passed hand would elicit 2NT and then 3N slightly wrong sided. Posters! Where would you get to with your favorite partner? Be honest.

[MrAce]

Wackojack, on 2016-September-16, 07:12, said:

---

3NT is a contract that most would want to be in. I cannot see any way that you can reasonably get to 3N whether or not you play any form of check-back, Walsh or Transfer Walsh. Maybe 1♠ 2nd response to show exactly 3 and a modest invite by a passed hand would elicit 2NT and then 3N slightly wrong sided. Posters! Where would you get to with your favorite partner? Be honest.

3 NT is not the contract you want to be in, non vulnerable. Probably not even vulnerable.

[m1cha]

Wackojack, on 2016-September-16, 07:12, said:

3NT is a contract that most would want to be in. I cannot see any way that you can reasonably get to 3N whether or not you play any form of check-back, Walsh or Transfer Walsh. Maybe 1♠ 2nd response to show exactly 3 and a modest invite by a passed hand would elicit 2NT and then 3N slightly wrong sided. Posters! Where would you get to with your favorite partner? Be honest.

Playing with robots I would end up in 3NT by opening 1NT. 14 HCP + a length point in ♣ is just right. Singleton in a minor? Who cares. With my favorite partner I do the same because if my partner doesn't permit me to do it he's not my favorite partner . With other partners I end up in 1NT in the way shown here. And yes, in some countries it is illegal to open 1NT with a singleton, particularly with a small singleton.

Do I want to be in 3NT? I'll tell you after the first trick .

[MrAce]

m1cha, on 2016-September-16, 15:56, said:

Playing with robots I would end up in 3NT by opening 1NT. 14 HCP + a length point in ♣ is just right. Singleton in a minor? Who cares. With my favorite partner I do the same because if my partner doesn't permit me to do it he's not my favorite partner . With other partners I end up in 1NT in the way shown here. And yes, in some countries it is illegal to open 1NT with a singleton, particularly with a small singleton.

Do I want to be in 3NT? I'll tell you after the first trick .

I will give you the best that a declarer can wish. ♦ A and ♦. That is an absolute 1 trick gift to declarer. Did you make your 3 NT yet?

[m1cha]

MrAce, on 2016-September-16, 17:46, said:

I will give you the best that a declarer can wish. ♦ A and ♦. That is an absolute 1 trick gift to declarer. Did you make your 3 NT yet?

The lead is generous, thanks. I assume you will switch to ♣ now because anything else helps me even more. So I play ♠ from S, and if opponents now switch to ♥, I must hope the ♥J is on, 50 % if opponents don't make any other gifts.

Just an hour ago I played a very similar hand in a Free Daylong where my robot partner raised me into 3NT with 23 or 24 HCP combined, which I made. (I can't show the hand here yet because the results are still secret.) The contract would have been down 1 on perfect defence but the thing is that these gifts just happen. I am sure your opponents give less gifts than mine; and yet, let's say if the combined hands look like 3NT has 30 % on perfect defence and you are 50 % likely to get a gift trick, that sums up to 65 % chance, so you want to bid game, right?

[MrAce]

m1cha, on 2016-September-16, 19:09, said:

The lead is generous, thanks. I assume you will switch to ♣ now because anything else helps me even more. So I play ♠ from S, and if opponents now switch to ♥, I must hope the ♥J is on, 50 % if opponents don't make any other gifts.

Just an hour ago I played a very similar hand in a Free Daylong where my robot partner raised me into 3NT with 23 or 24 HCP combined, which I made. (I can't show the hand here yet because the results are still secret.) The contract would have been down 1 on perfect defence but the thing is that these gifts just happen. I am sure your opponents give less gifts than mine; and yet, let's say if the combined hands look like 3NT has 30 % on perfect defence and you are 50 % likely to get a gift trick, that sums up to 65 % chance, so you want to bid game, right?

[Wackojack]

"I will give you the best that a declarer can wish. ♦ A and ♦. That is an absolute 1 trick gift to declarer. Did you make your 3 NT yet?"


I didnt expect defence to be so kind. Now my odds are about 8o%. Throw a heart. Finesse spade, if successful claim. If loses and defence does not lead a heart then claim. If defence leads a small heart then hope it is not from the AJ or KJ. If from Jxxx very happy. If Jxx then hope that East will give the game away.

[MrAce]

Wackojack, on 2016-September-17, 14:15, said:

"I will give you the best that a declarer can wish. ♦ A and ♦. That is an absolute 1 trick gift to declarer. Did you make your 3 NT yet?"


I didnt expect defence to be so kind. Now my odds are about 8o%. Throw a heart. Finesse spade, if successful claim. If loses and defence does not lead a heart then claim. If defence leads a small heart then hope it is not from the AJ or KJ. If from Jxxx very happy. If Jxx then hope that East will give the game away.

Yes after this friendly lead. Another way to look at it, you are still not at home against these friendly people!

Now assume they led ♦ which you won with K or Q in hand, and I will let your ♠ finesse to be on (except Kx only) and I will ALSO let you have the ♥J on.
Or assume they led spade and shifted to diamonds.
Or assume they led clubs...

You are in bad shape in most cases when ♦ A is off.

You want the ♦ A on? I will give you ♦ A ON. . Are you in good shape? I will also give you one of the 2 you prefer, ♠ K or ♥J on, but not all of them.

• ♦A is on and ♠K is on, they led club or they led ♦ which you won in hand. You try ♥J finesse I suppose, loses and they now play spade, you win with J in dummy. Now what? W will play another spade when in with 2nd ♥ to set AT LEAST 1 ♠ +3♥+1♦ tricks for defense.

• ♦A is on and ♥J is on. Are you in good shape on ♠ lead? They will win (or duck their ♠K), duck the first ♦ as most players do by playing low as 2nd player, and now what? You can not avoid losing 2♠+2♥+♦A. They have time to set up a 2nd spade trick,

This will not be the worst game we ever played, but it is not something you badly want to be in non vulnerable either.

The more you get involved with the play or defense part of this game, the more your opinions change about the contracts you end up playing. This has a direct effect on the methods you choose in bidding. Forums are full of people who loves to contribute to "bidding problems" "your turn" problems. As Justin said once, it is impossible to prove someone wrong in that type of topics. People usually stay away from playing or defense problems. They all love to make comments on how to signal looking at a single hand and the problem defense has. Few knows the solution for this hand may create a lot of "invisible" losses in many other hands. Because few also takes into consideration of when to signal-how to signal and whether we should signal. Everyone loves to talk whether 1♣-1♦-1M should be unbalanced or not, loves to talk xyz or 2 way nmf, mixed raises or how to learn 3rd round control from pd in a grandslam hand. As your friend, if you consider me as one, I suggest to go through EACH and EVERY single hand you play and analyse them. This work always pay off. Thinking or debating about bidding and methods are fine too but it requires another person to study them with you. Everything goes out of the window once you change a pd. But the work you do in declarer play remains valuable, always.

[m1cha]

Just for the fun of it, here's the 3NT hand I mentioned last night. Free Daylong in MPs. I think we can agree that this hand is at least not any better than the one from the OP.

---

Some people passed with that nasty 12-point hand at S. Most opened 1♣, West overcalled 1♦, N bid 2♦ as a limit raise, and then whatever S did, N bid 3NT. So out of 109 players 94 ended up in 3NT, most by N, some by S. 24 of them made it, 55 were down 1, 12 were down 2. Do you want to be in 3NT? Probably not if your partner lets you play 3♣ . But in those cases where S failed to open, EW usually played and made a ♠ contract, so 3NT down was still better for NS (excepting the three guys who played 3NT-3, -4 and -5). GIB says 3NT is down 1 upon best play, by the way.

In my case, I played 3NT from S, got the ♦8 lead which I was lucky to take with the 9, which held. One trick. 7 more can be developed (provided ♣ break 3:2), so it's one trick missing. I decided ♥ is the less dangerous suit to develop first, so I played ♥K which was overtaken with ♥A. Now E failed to play the killing ♦3. This was my gift! Instead, E played a ♥ to my ♥Q. I played ♠ to the ♠Q, W ducked, rightly, no second gift here, but the damage was done. I played the clubs and ♥J finally endplaying W with that now-singleton ♦K and made the contract.

Just looking at the N and S hands, would I want to be in 3NT? Certainly not. On the other hand, gifts happen. On the whole I learnt to bid more aggressively in the last 6 months, and think I profit from it.