[Cyberyeti]

 MrAce, on 2016-August-28, 04:09, said:

And what did you think I said about 2♥ being forcing and about 3♥?

You spoke about 3♥, but my point was that it only meant that IF 2♥ was forcing, which I didn't notice you saying.

Quote

And what does 5 level have anything to do with it? Just because Phil said hand 1 should bid 4♠ over 3 NT? You will always be in danger with xxx ♦ at 5 level. I would probably sign off with xxx♦ hand. Because I need KQJ(x) ♦ to make slam. K alone is not enough. KQx is not enough due to being in front of the opener. What will Phil do when pd bids 5♦? It can not be ♦ A and I will explain why.

Again, it matters vastly if 2♥ is forcing, if it isn't, how do you bid a bigger hand with worse hearts, partner can happily suggest 3N in that case with a stiff heart.

Quote

Assuming that you, Phil and me are on same page about the meaning of 3♥, you are way too focused on looking at the strong hand types and missing to see the ocean on the boat. You do not pay attention to what pd did or did not do. What do you think 3 NT over 3♥ means when you told pd that we will play at least 4♥? Please don't tell me choice of games! That means pd does not have first round control in any of the other suits. That also means he has something useful in at least one of the other suits or he would have simply bid 4♥ over 3♥ with nothing.

KQJx
xxx
Qxx
xxx

Would bid 4♥ over 3♥

KJxx
xx
Axxx
xxx

Would bid 4♦ over 3♥

KJxx
xx
Kxxx
Jxx

Would bid 3 NT over 3♥. Then you bid 4♣, he bids 4♦ you now bid 4♠ and he bids 5♥. You do not want to play slam xx vs Kxxx when the opener is behind that K. With KQxx ♦ pd would bid 5♦ over 4♠. That does not mean AK♦, he already denied A of ♦ over 3♥ by bidding 3 NT.

All you need is a pd who understand what "setting the trump" means and can use 3 NT as a tool instead of choice of games AFTER you already told him/her which game we will play, if not slam.

Not sure exactly what 3N is in standard, for us it's a diamond cue (we use NT to substitute for the most expensive cue in this sort of auction), and I'd bid 3♠ over 3♥ on all 3 of your hands as we cue 2nd round controls as standard.

[MrAce]

 Cyberyeti, on 2016-August-28, 05:51, said:

You spoke about 3♥, but my point was that it only meant that IF 2♥ was forcing, which I didn't notice you saying.


Again, it matters vastly if 2♥ is forcing, if it isn't, how do you bid a bigger hand with worse hearts, partner can happily suggest 3N in that case with a stiff heart.



Not sure exactly what 3N is in standard, for us it's a diamond cue (we use NT to substitute for the most expensive cue in this sort of auction), and I'd bid 3♠ over 3♥ on all 3 of your hands as we cue 2nd round controls as standard.

 MrAce, on 2016-August-27, 02:40, said:

Are we all sure that 4♣ shows clubs after we already bid 3♥? How would you bid with


I do not know others but to me 3♥ is a 1 suiter hand and already self confirms the trumps, especially over a NT response. Perhaps we should have started 2♥ the previous round, which I would have.

You all should consider playing DBL and then new suit over NT response as forcing. Especially if your overcalls are made to 17 hcp, dbl and then suit over NT response should be forcing. 1 NT response is not 0-9 like other responses.

You can use 3 NT the way you want. The one I suggest happens only when 1 of the partner shows a power house and a solid suit. At these auctions I strongly suggest the one I wrote. Where one side is in total control of the auction and it is impossible for the weak hand to know exactly what pd needs. It also keeps you below 5 level when 2 aces are missing and/or makes you know grandslam is out of question so you continue your auction focusing on slam only. It also helps (knowing your side has all the keycards at 4 level) you to more effectively investigate grands in further cues.

[Jinksy]

 MrAce, on 2016-August-27, 02:40, said:

Are we all sure that 4♣ shows clubs after we already bid 3♥? How would you bid with

A
AKQTxxx
xx
AKQ

Pd can hold

...

KT9x
xx
Axx
Jxxx

I take the point about 2♥ being better as a GF (and therefore 3♥ as setting suit), but it doesn't seem that easy to construct hands where slam is both good and actually biddable. For eg, on the two above, opener would have at best something like QJxxx J98x KQJT -. To most people I would guess that's not an opening bid - not sure about you - (and I had to make trumps split badly to give opener any value at all from his J♥).

[rmnka447]

This seems like a tough call for me.

3 ♥ is a virtual GF after 1NT as partner has to have at least some values to bid NT. Over a lowest level suit reply which could be on absolutely nothing, it would be game invitational to the extent that it suggests "if you have any excuse to do so, please bid game." An A, K, or fit would be enough. Partner has made a choice and bid 3 NT. I'd expect partner to have at most a singleton or void in ♥. With a doubleton ♥ and some positive feature, it would seem normal to bid 4 ♥ or make a cue rather than bid 3 NT.

Assuming partner has something like J10xx or Q10x as a minimum stopper, what can opener have for an opening bid? At best, it would seem like opener has ♠ KQ at most. So, opener ought to have something like KQ in one minor and possibly some points in the other. But it could be that opener has some rule of 20 opener like KQxxx xxx KQJx x or a psyche, and slam is still a possibility. OTOH, the more partner has in ♠, the stronger opener is likely to be in the minors.

I'm probably passing and sitting for 3 NT as the most likely positive. A duck in hearts will be odds on to yield 8 tricks out of your hand even opposite a void (4-3 break 62%-).

[MrAce]

 Jinksy, on 2016-August-28, 11:55, said:

I take the point about 2♥ being better as a GF (and therefore 3♥ as setting suit), but it doesn't seem that easy to construct hands where slam is both good and actually biddable. For eg, on the two above, opener would have at best something like QJxxx J98x KQJT -. To most people I would guess that's not an opening bid - not sure about you - (and I had to make trumps split badly to give opener any value at all from his J♥).

KQxxx Jxx AJxx x is opener for you? Make the spade void in strong hand then AKQxx xx AJxx xx is opener for you? Easy to construct hands. You are just focusing on the wrong place where I gave NT bidder KTxx ♠ instead of JTxx ♠ where K was not a trick to me in slam.