[rmnka447]

I have no problem with OP opening the hand 1 ♦ instead of 2 ♣. That's because with most of my partner's a 2 ♣ openers promise no more than 3 losers for a minor suit hand or 4 losers for a major suit hand. So I'd open it 1 ♦ myself.

After 1 ♦ is bid and responder bids 1 ♠, opener needs to force responder to bid again because ♠ have become a possible strain for the contract. So, a "hasty" 2 ♥ reverse looks like the logical bid. It gives the opportunity to hear something further from responder before committing to any game and keeps the bidding relatively low.

Let's say you play 2 NT as natural or the start of a signoff after the reverse. If responder bids 2 NT, then you could jump bid to 4 ♦ to show a ♦ hand just below an opening 2 ♣ bid.

OTOH, partner may show a positive hand and give you some valuable information. With the actual hands, responder would rebid 2 ♠ and identifies an 8+ card ♠ fit. But it's also possible that responder might raise ♦ which would set you on an exploration for a ♦ slam.

[Cyberyeti]

msjennifer, on 2016-August-06, 01:07, said:

And what does he bid if he does not have the fifth spade.?How do you propose to continue the bidding further ?

I've shown 6+ diamonds and an enormous hand with 3♦, so I'm in a similar place to 2♣-2♦-3♦ except I've shown the 6th diamond, he's shown me 4+♠ and values and I'm limited by the failure to open 2♣, so wherever we go, I'm in a better place.

[rmnka447]

The_Badger, on 2016-August-06, 00:06, said:

I'm glad that I've opened up a small can of worms over the 2♦ waiting bid: perhaps it deserves a forum question all of its own. Thanks to wank, Stefan O and kenberg for your replies.

The reason why I bought this up is that the Larry Cohen response seems simplistic. 2♦ waiting except if you have 8+ HCPs and a good 5 card+ suit with 2 honours then bid it. Happens all time - not!

More often than not responder has anything from a Yarborough to something that may be useful but isn't substantial. (And yes, the Yarborough can be useful if it has the right shape.)

I have also noticed in the Cayne games that hands where many players would open 2♣ just on points and controls, especially with a minor suit holding, are opened with 1♣ or 1♦.

And that inconveniently brings us back to another question: 2♣ or 1♦? The jury's out.

Cohen's suggestion isn't so much about frequency as about providing useful information to partner when you make a positive response to 2 ♣ by setting some parameters as to what the response means. I've seen many, many opponent's 2 ♣ auctions go awry because of undisciplined positives being bid.

Take the present hand. Using Cohen's criteria, over 2 ♣, responder has enough to make a 2 ♠ positive response. Now go back to OP's hand. By knowing responder has 5+ ♠ to 2 honors (which must be KQ), opener ought to be able to already visualize at least a small slam in ♦ or ♠ at this point in the auction. Those kind of insights are very powerful for really effective bidding.

[rmnka447]

duplicate deleted

[kenberg]

msjennifer, on 2016-August-06, 01:29, said:

inspite of the fact that most responders will bid 2D if partner opens 2 C, I would like to insist that it is a bad policy to make it a waiting bid.If one has a positive hand,say 8plus HCP and 2 controls,and a five carder biddable major or minor it is best to bid it immediately.Whereas a 2D bidder has to make two bids to show such a hand(5 card major)It is best to adopt Precision system responses! .If one uses such responses opener immediately,with a fit,will know responder has KQxxx.It now does not matter which King he has, as any will do,7 Spades is not difficult to bid with this information.

I am not sure what you are saying here. Going back to Aces Scientific, again on p42, we are told that 2C-2M shows 5+ cards headed by at least the KQ. "Waiting" does not mean "always waiting", it means that there is a list of non-2D responses with specific meanings and the 2D call means the responder's hand is not in that list.There is, for example, a meaning assigned to 2C-2NT. Balanced, no ace, no suit worse than Jxx. Not an everyday call, but when it comes up opener can usually place the hand exactly at his next turn. It is not even necessariy wrong sided since the opening lead will or can ride to the hand with the queens and jacks.

Of course one could play that 2C always requires 2D. Indeed this would seem wrong to me. Even if the Aces approach is seen as wanting, surely there should be some list of hands where the response is not 2D. Whatever the case, with the partner I had, I am confident that had I opened 2C she would have responded 2S. I might never find that she has the club K as well, but if I, or rather she as declarer, can establish diamonds with one ruff I have six diamonds and five spades so two tricks from the outside aces suffices. No system handles every hand, if such a system existed we would all be playing it. But the system we were playing would have handled this hand if I had simply opened 2C. Of course opening 2C could lead to problems if responder's hand were different, but it wasn't.

[kenberg]

These thoughts about a reverse interest me. If an auction begins 1C-1M-2D I think of the 2D as a bit suspect. People get dealt strong hands with strong clubs, hands where they are comfortable bidding to 4C, and maybe not much in diamonds. What else can they do but fake a reverse into diamonds.

I have always avoided faking a reverse into the majors. With enough caution, I suppose it could work: 1D-1S-2H-3H. Opener trusts responder to have four hearts and therefore five spades. If a 3S call now tells responder to forget about that heart call, what opener really has is three spades and long diamonds, this could work.

Of course responder will not always have four hearts, and didn't on this hand. People have varied ideas about what happens after a reverse. In my view, responder with five spades but no diamond support rebids 2S (not to be passed). With four spades and diamond support, responder bids 3D (gf) or 2NT->3C, intending to bid a passable 3D. With both diamond support and five spades and non-minimal values I think the gf 3D is better, after which opener bids 3S with three card support just in case responder has five. With a minimal hand, five spades and diamond support then responder still seeks a fit with 2S, he can always get out later in 3D if needed.

So maybe this can work with 1D-1S-2H also, but I have a reluctance to fool around in the majors. With enough discussion I suppose it can work but I have not had such discussions with anyone online, and rarely if ever with f2fs.

Here, 2C seems right. It will work out usually, and would have worked out very well with the actual hands.

[Caitlynne]

I don't agree that bridge is 90% judgment. Such claims are often made after we have erred in analysis! This, for example, was not a judgment hand, but rather an analysis hand.

You have a 10 trick hand (or pretty close to it), so it is never right to open 1D. You can never catch up if partner responds (as you correctly realized) and you should feel ill if it gets passed out in 1D.

Hands like these are why the bridge gods decided that a system must include a forcing opening bid. If it is 2C in your system, this is a 2C opener.

Notice that, if you happen to be playing 2D waiting (so that 2H or 2S promises a 5+ card suit headed by at least the KQ), this will enable you to reach the virtually cold grand slam.

[kenberg]

Caitlynne, on 2016-August-06, 07:17, said:

I don't agree that bridge is 90% judgment. Such claims are often made after we have erred in analysis! This, for example, was not a judgment hand, but rather an analysis hand.

You have a 10 trick hand (or pretty close to it), so it is never right to open 1D. You can never catch up if partner responds (as you correctly realized) and you should feel ill if it gets passed out in 1D.

Hands like these are why the bridge gods decided that a system must include a forcing opening bid. If it is 2C in your system, this is a 2C opener.

Notice that, if you happen to be playing 2D waiting (so that 2H or 2S promises a 5+ card suit headed by at least the KQ), this will enable you to reach the virtually cold grand slam.

Yes, of course I have noticed that a 2C opening leads to 7S. I have mentioned this more than once. But why do you say this is system? I had 2C available to me, partner would have responded 2S and there we are. I opened 1D. This is what I mean by judgment versus system. System allowed for 2C-2S, my (mistaken) judgment let to 1D-1S.

I cannot recall the last time I got a bad result and then said "Well if only we were playing the Zebra convention we would have prevailed". I can easily recall lots of hands where in bidding or in play better judgment would have produced better results. This is one of them. I recently went down in a 3H contract I could have make if I simply follow the clues from the auction. There was a recent hand where, on defense, I can place the diamond J from the auction. If declarer had it, he would have opened 1NT. And so on. Most bad results come from mistakes, not form inadequate system agreements. Maybe at the highest level it is different.

If you prefer "failure of analysis" to "bad judgment" I can go with that.

[GrahamJson]

I think using 2D as a waiting bid can be overdone. Here you have a perfectly good 2S response. Even more so holding xxx in hearts as you can raise a 3H rebid to four. With a singleton heart bidding 2D makes more sense as yo can rebid 2S over the likely 2H rebid by opener. The point is whether to make a waiting bid of 2D when you hold values depends a lot on your distribution. Holding five hearts you can make a positive response quite freely, whereas holding diamonds you are much more likely to bid 2D as a 3D response can cramp the bidding too much.

[Phil]

Control responses make this a crap shoot.

2C 2H (I guess)
3D 3S

Seems like a logical start but the auction runs out of gas. I suppose you could continue with 4N and ID the sKQ but that seems how novices bid Gerber and then RKC to double check.

Old fashioned standard players would bid

2C 2S
7S......well opener might take it a little slower and confirm responder doesn't have diamond support or KTxxxx of spades.


If the big hand doesn't open 2C I hope Gazilli gets played. That would avoid the need to make a phony jump shift.

In my Meckwell partnership we would bid

1C 1H
2D 2S
3S 3N
4C 4S
4N 5C
5D 6C
7S

1H is 8-11, 3N is NS, etc.

In my new partnership we'd bid

1D 1H
1N 2C
3D 3S
4S 4N
5D 5N
7S

1H is spades, 1N is Gazzilli like, 2C is positive, 3D shows about a strong 2 in diamonds.

[neilkaz]

I would hope that the bidding in my old fashioned 2/1 partnerships would go as follows.

2♣(WTP) 2♠(A rare positive response strictly adhering to have a 5+ card suit with 2 of the top 3 honors and 8+HCP). Now opener could practically gamble 7♠ but asking cannot hurt. So 4NT 1430.
5C (1 key but I knew that from the strict positive response) and now I can ask about the Queen of trumps I know PD holds with 5♦ and he will show me that Queen + the K♣ with 6♣ bid. Or I can just ask specific kings with 5NT and again he bids 6♣. All roads to to the confident grand.

[masse24]

neilkaz, on 2016-August-06, 11:25, said:

I would hope that the bidding in my old fashioned 2/1 partnerships would go as follows.

2♣(WTP) 2♠(A rare positive response strictly adhering to have a 5+ card suit with 2 of the top 3 honors and 8+HCP). Now opener could practically gamble 7♠ but asking cannot hurt. So 4NT 1430.
5C (1 key but I knew that from the strict positive response) and now I can ask about the Queen of trumps I know PD holds with 5♦ and he will show me that Queen + the K♣ with 6♣ bid. Or I can just ask specific kings with 5NT and again he bids 6♣. All roads to to the confident grand.

If I went this route (via 2♣) I would want partner to know that my 4NT "asking" is for ♠s. So, after 2♠ . . . let partner in on it with 3♠. An immediate 4NT could be construed as vanilla Blackwood sans suit agreement.

[neilkaz]

masse24, on 2016-August-06, 12:57, said:

If I went this route (via 2♣) I would want partner to know that my 4NT "asking" is for ♠s. So, after 2♠ . . . let partner in on it with 3♠. An immediate 4NT could be construed as vanilla Blackwood sans suit agreement.

This is OK also, but we'd the agreement that 4NT is for ♠ after a 2♠ positive response. Your method seems to make more sense since as long as PD adheres to the strict requirements for a positive response, the 2♣ opener knows about his trump honors anyhow.

[kenberg]

masse24, on 2016-August-06, 12:57, said:

If I went this route (via 2♣) I would want partner to know that my 4NT "asking" is for ♠s. So, after 2♠ . . . let partner in on it with 3♠. An immediate 4NT could be construed as vanilla Blackwood sans suit agreement.

Right. I was speaking of this with a f2f partner the other day. For simplicity, we would just assume that 4NT over 2S is rkc, but I mentioned that when there is an opportunity to set trumps. such as by bidding 3S here, then 4NT can be played as 4 ace blackwood. For now, we are leaving well enough alone. But I think what you are saying is the right way.

[miamijd]

The trouble with a 2C opener is that it's going to be difficult to know what the right spot is after 2C 2D/2H 3D 3H/3S.

You now have no idea either where the hand belongs (NT, D, or if partner bids 3S, spades) or how high (game or slam). And unfortunately, you have pretty much run out of room to explore.

I would open 1D on this hand (but I think I would be in the minority). I'm not too worried about playing there; if partner is bust, someone is going to bid hearts or clubs.

After 1S, 5D is a silly bid. All partner needs is Kxxxx of spades to make 6S odds-on, and KQxxx to make a grand a good bet. Alternatively, 6 or 7D could be cold.

Instead, you have an easy reverse to 2H. It is actually common enough to reverse into a phony suit. There are a lot of 6331 hands with a 6 card minor where you have to do that. This is an extension of that.

The reason 2H is safe as can be here is that you have 3 spades. So if partner raises hearts, you know he has 4 hearts, and thus at least 5 spades (because with 44, he'd bid 1H, not 1S). With your hand, a heart raise would be great news.

So now you have 1D 1S 2H 2S (showing 5) 4NT 5D(one) 5H(Qask) 6S (Q no Kings) 7S. Easy peasy lemon squeezy

Cheers,
Mike

[miamijd]

kenberg, on 2016-August-06, 06:49, said:

These thoughts about a reverse interest me. If an auction begins 1C-1M-2D I think of the 2D as a bit suspect. People get dealt strong hands with strong clubs, hands where they are comfortable bidding to 4C, and maybe not much in diamonds. What else can they do but fake a reverse into diamonds.

I have always avoided faking a reverse into the majors. With enough caution, I suppose it could work: 1D-1S-2H-3H. Opener trusts responder to have four hearts and therefore five spades. If a 3S call now tells responder to forget about that heart call, what opener really has is three spades and long diamonds, this could work.

Of course responder will not always have four hearts, and didn't on this hand. People have varied ideas about what happens after a reverse. In my view, responder with five spades but no diamond support rebids 2S (not to be passed). With four spades and diamond support, responder bids 3D (gf) or 2NT->3C, intending to bid a passable 3D. With both diamond support and five spades and non-minimal values I think the gf 3D is better, after which opener bids 3S with three card support just in case responder has five. With a minimal hand, five spades and diamond support then responder still seeks a fit with 2S, he can always get out later in 3D if needed.

So maybe this can work with 1D-1S-2H also, but I have a reluctance to fool around in the majors. With enough discussion I suppose it can work but I have not had such discussions with anyone online, and rarely if ever with f2fs.

Here, 2C seems right. It will work out usually, and would have worked out very well with the actual hands.

Faking a reverse into hearts is 100% safe if you have 3 spades. If partner raises hearts (showing 4), you know he has 5 spades (with 44 he would have bid 1H, not 1S), so you just go back to spades to show your hearts were phony.

This is rather common on 3361 and 3163 hands, and sometimes is useful on 3262 hands, too (if you choose not to open the hand with 2NT).

[jogs]

johnu, on 2016-August-05, 12:19, said:

Years ago in the Bridge World, there was a Master Solvers hand where opener was something like 3=1=8=1? (or maybe 3=8=1=1???, sorry, don't remember the details, maybe somebody else does) with jump shift strength with 2 singleton aces. The 100% score after a start of 1♦ - 1♠ was a jump shift to 3♣. The comment that stands out after all these years was along the line of never having a bad result by jumping in the lower ranking of your singleton aces.

Can you narrow it down to which decade? Which year would be better. 'Funny' three level bids are usually in a minor.
Opponents silent.
1♦ - 1♠, 3♥
Don't most advanced pairs treat this as a splinter? It is difficult to treat a 3♥ as not natural in some sense.

[kenberg]

Let's say that having opened 1D I might well have made up a reverse into 2H over 1S. I still fault myself for not planning it out. That is, my reasoning could have been: If I am not prepared to reverse into 2H over 1S then I had better not open this 1D.
But then I had also better think about what I am going to do after 1D-1H.

Basic bridge instruction is to think about a rebid when choosing a first bid. I didn't, or rather I thought about some issues after 2C, didn't like it, so I opened 1D w/o much thought at all. But then, over 1D-1H, I suppose I could go with the 1D-1H-3C plan.

I think there are two sorts of discussions possible.

1. What to do online with a partner with whom you have played some but with whom you have no detailed experience or agreements
and
2. What to wok thorough in a partnership

I really think 2C was the best choice in situation 1. In situation 2 I am up for various other options. Certainly 2C could go wrong.

Oh. I did not understand Phil's reference to Gazilli. I have never played it but I thought that was after 1M-1NT or some such.

[Lovera]

I have read discussion but i think that one can be considered a false problem. Infact partner response is positive in an hand able to open with a 2♣ (semiforcing until 3rd level or 2NT) because you have four losers (4 l.x5=20) vs 23 points counting longness only in diamond. The positive answeres (on accordling in Stayman system pag. 283) are : 1) 1A+1K or 3K or KQ in a suit and 1K in another one; 2) a suit headed with KQ or AJ (KQxxx , AJxxx).(Lovera)

[jogs]

1♦ - 1♠, 4♦

This bid promises 4-6 in spades/diamonds. Maybe 3-7 is only a small lie.