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Has U.S. Democracy Been Trumped? Bernie Sanders wants to know who owns America?

#20241 User is offline   Winstonm 

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Posted 2022-August-05, 18:16

View PostEvies Dad, on 2022-August-05, 14:31, said:

What we need are several issues, say five, such that on each of those five issues voters far prefer a Democrat to someone holding the view of the right wing of the Republican Party. That would probably allow a D to win.

Sorry for the crude copy and paste. It is all I can manage on my old, mini mobile.

If five such issues were found then would it not make equal sense for Republican candidates to stop holding such ridiculous views if it meant more votes.
Don't parties shift according to the electorate, or electoral system ?
You guys seem determined to win by building the biggest trench and capturing the most casualties.

If reasonableness can’t win, we all lose,
"Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." Black Lives Matter. / "I need ammunition, not a ride." Zelensky
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#20242 User is offline   kenberg 

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Posted 2022-August-05, 18:49

View PostEvies Dad, on 2022-August-05, 14:31, said:

What we need are several issues, say five, such that on each of those five issues voters far prefer a Democrat to someone holding the view of the right wing of the Republican Party. That would probably allow a D to win.

Sorry for the crude copy and paste. It is all I can manage on my old, mini mobile.

If five such issues were found then would it not make equal sense for Republican candidates to stop holding such ridiculous views if it meant more votes.
Don't parties shift according to the electorate, or electoral system ?
You guys seem determined to win by building the biggest trench and capturing the most casualties.


This is the result I hope for. There was a time, not even so long ago, that I voted for my choice thinking that the world would survive if I got outvoted.
Ken
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#20243 User is offline   Chas_P 

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Posted 2022-August-05, 19:28

By M.B. Mathews

Quote

I recently wrote a column about why I believed Trump should not run in 2024. I was wrong. I allowed my distaste for Trump’s personality to override his virtues, which are considerable. Some people want Trump without his vices. I was among them -- until yesterday, when I watched and listened to Tom Klingenstein’s speech titled “Trump’s virtues.” It was masterful and shamed me that I did not make the distinction between Trump's character and his virtues, the former being deeply flawed, the latter being almost perfect. I need to man up in my defense of the former President's virtues. The speech was among the most pointed I have heard and deserves some exposure. Klingenstein says:

Other Republicans say some version of “I like Trump policies but I don’t like the rest of him.” This gets it almost backwards. Although Trump advanced many important policies, it is the 'rest of him' that contains the virtue that inspires the movement… Trump was born for the current crisis, a life and death struggle against a totalitarian enemy I call woke communism... that control all the cultural and economic powers in America…

Trump revealed, not caused, the divide in this country. In war, you must make a stand… Trump is a manly man... traditional manhood, even when flawed, is absolutely essential… Trump plays to win... There are no clean hands in a fistfight…Trump is unreservedly, unquestionably pro-America… Trump is a refreshing break from the guilt and self-loathing that marks our age…

It is anti-Americanism that makes so many of us very angry: The Left have trashed America's Founding and her history to the point where some believe it virtuous to hate America. Rather than advocating forgiveness for sins, the Left are advocating hair shirts, self-flagellation, and perpetual guilt. It is un-American and certainly un-Christian.

Trump thinks we can vanquish all comers if we just put our minds to it, and he's right… Courage never demands perfection… Trump over and over said exactly what political correctness prohibits one from saying... Trump said Haiti is a shithole and that representative Maxine Waters has a low IQ. These were not racist lies. They were uncouth, politically incorrect observations that most of us would agree with but would not dare say.

In 2016, we loved Trump for his outspokenness. But many seem to have changed their minds without cause; Trump is the same today as he was before he was elected. The very things we disdain today are the things that made him the man for our time.

From morning to night, we were told that Trump is a racist. But endless repetition does not make it true. It isn’t. Trump’s contempt for political correctness showed patriotic Americans that its ever-tightening grip could be loosened... It is difficult to overestimate the significance of Trump’s fight against political correctness, a fight which most Republicans are reluctant to engage… Trump treated the woke media with the same contempt he treated political correctness, provoking their outrage and revealing their utter corruption... it must be defeated.

I take back my unwillingness to engage Trump on his own terms. It is the Left, not we, who are politically correct. They are the ones restricting speech, cancelling and censoring, not we on the Right.

Unlike most politicians, when Trump sees a problem, he goes out and fixes it. He fixed our porous borders. He moved our Israeli embassy to Jerusalem after decades of inaction. He eliminated hate-America critical race theory in his administrative agency. He developed a vaccine in record time. He achieved energy independence and much, much more.

His accomplishments far outweigh his personality quirks. No other president did so much in so little time.

Trump smoked rats out of hiding places. Because of Trump we know our intelligence agencies are corrupt. We know also that the mainstream media is not just biased, that it is the propaganda arm of the Democratic party.

Had it not been for the vehement and irrational hatred of Trump, we never would have discovered that our own security and intelligence structures are compromised. I blame #NeverTrumpers for corrupting these Agencies. This unprecedented breach of the very security of this nation is unprecedented and deeply dangerous, leaving us open to the espionage of courtesans who prey on politicians who think with their private parts.

A large part of Trump’s appeal was that he was a bona fide outsider. He distrusted the experts who believe they knew better than the average American how to run the country. This distrust was appealing to Trump’s base who believed, and with good reason, that is the experts who created the despotic mess in which we find ourselves.

We always knew but never had anyone champion that we, not the Swamp, knew better how to manage our money, our time, our personal lives, our resources and our families. In their authoritarian mindsets, the Left wanted to take over all these very personal, uniquely American functions and replace it with governmental overreach. They nearly got their wish, had it not been for COVID's home zoom classes where we found out that very young children are being sexualized, perverted, deliberately alienated from their parents and taught to hate America and white people.

…They know that Republicans will lose all further elections until they get to the bottom of the last one.

This most sensitive area of politics is a disaster. I believe the election was stolen and millions of others do. We now have evidence from many quarters that this is so. It cannot be permitted a repeat or there will be severe repercussions that will dwarf the current ones.

Some will say that Trump is a bad man and that disqualifies him. I do not think Trump is a bad man, but for those who do I remind them that a bad man in some circumstances can be a good president. If you’re dying of thirst and there is only one person offering you water, you accept the water gratefully without much concern for the character of your rescuer.

We wanted Trump not only to fix things; we wanted him to be perfect while doing it. That is unrealistic in the average family, the average relationship, the average business and the average political or cultural milieu. Yet some of us wanted Trump to be perfect enough to invite to tea. He is not that man. But he is the man for our tumultuous times.

This enumeration of Trump’s virtues does not fully capture his uncommon courage and firmness of purpose. Trump is the most towering political figure in living memory… Trump inspired a movement. If properly deployed this movement might challenge the woke-comms, and God willing, save the country.

These very things are what the Left hate, yet it is not their favor we need to care about. They will not embrace anyone on the Republican ticket and certainly not one they cannot bully. We need to stop worrying about acceptance of our candidates by the Left or they will have won.

Republicans, however, should not forget that it is his support and the spirit they embrace that have become the life force of the Republican party. Among the talked-about alternatives to Trump I have not yet seen anyone who possesses or even understands Trump’s virtues. Nor have I seen anyone with his backbone and fortitude. One does not appreciate the strength of relentless gale-force winds until one is in the eye of the storm.

…which is exactly where Trump and we are at this moment. We have to prepare for the gale-force winds we will encounter. To not do this is to ignore the lessons of the recent past and it will be forever to our sorrow to ignore them.

His virtue must be the standard by which we judge other candidates.

Amen and amen. We don't have to like his personality but his virtues far outweigh it. I humbly stand corrected and offer my mea culpa.


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#20244 User is offline   y66 

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Posted 2022-August-05, 19:32

Lawyer for Sandy Hook parents said:

We ask that you send a very, very simple message, and that is: Stop Alex Jones. Stop the monetization of misinformation and lies. Please.

Jurors said:

Will do.

If you lose all hope, you can always find it again -- Richard Ford in The Sportswriter
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#20245 User is offline   Gilithin 

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Posted 2022-August-06, 00:23

View PostChas_P, on 2022-August-05, 19:28, said:

By M.B. Mathews
Amen and amen. We don't have to like his personality but his virtues far outweigh it. I humbly stand corrected and offer my mea culpa.

I genuinely thought this piece was a tongue-in-cheek parody until I looked up M.B. Matthews. He appears to be something of a crackpot. As an example, he begins his article on US elections with:

Quote

We know that Democrats and the media (who still claim that no voter fraud of consequence took place in 2020) will try to cheat in November.


Or there is his piece on abortion:

Quote

Killing babies in or out of the womb is evil. It is a way for the baby to suffer the consequences of the mother’s (and father's) indiscretion. Would the same mother want to die for the sins of her child? No, not if she is so willing to kill the child in the first place. Even Old Testament law allowed for punishment against anyone harming a pregnant mother if the unborn child was killed.

The “good” here is the general public attitude on the Right toward bearing children. It is positive.


and

Quote

The Roe decision has further revealed the difference between Left vs. Right, good vs. evil in America. Distinctions were evident before this decision but now we see a deepening gorge with evil on the Left and good on the Right.


Yeah. Beyond the simple discussion of foetus versus baby, which apparently does not exist in conservative circles, the argument that women (and girls) are evil through the "indiscretion" of allowing themselves to get raped is more than just a little abhorrent.

There is also plenty more of this trash, most of it much worse than the quoted parts. If this is the guy that conservatives want to promote on forums such as this, they must have truly run out of sensible arguments and ideas.
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#20246 User is offline   Winstonm 

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Posted 2022-August-06, 07:12

The problem with small minds is after they are stuffed full nothing else will fit.
"Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." Black Lives Matter. / "I need ammunition, not a ride." Zelensky
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#20247 User is offline   kenberg 

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Posted 2022-August-06, 14:37

The Earth is round, the climate crisis is real, the 2020 election was legit. There are many things I am willing to discuss, but in some matters there is no longer any point. Does a person have a right to think otherwise? I guess so. He can think I was born on Mars, or that he was, or that we both were, I just don't care to discuss it with him.
Ken
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#20248 User is offline   y66 

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Posted 2022-August-07, 14:47

wd Chuck Schumer!
If you lose all hope, you can always find it again -- Richard Ford in The Sportswriter
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#20249 User is offline   y66 

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Posted 2022-August-07, 15:03

From holdout to deal maker

Posted ImagePhoto: Tom Brenner for The New York Times
If you lose all hope, you can always find it again -- Richard Ford in The Sportswriter
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#20250 User is offline   kenberg 

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Posted 2022-August-07, 15:44

View Posty66, on 2022-August-07, 14:47, said:



One way of looking at this: The Dems can now tell people why they deserve to win on their own merits rather than because the alternative is God-Awful Disastrous. Yes, the alternative is God-Awful Disastrous but that is not usually enough to win an election. This is a major accomplishment. No doubt about it and no way around it.

I had really begun to lose hope that people could ever get anything done.
Ken
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#20251 User is offline   Winstonm 

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Posted 2022-August-07, 17:14

I am still a cynic. I think Sinema and Manchin saw writing on the wall that the House will not stay Democrat so now or never.
"Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." Black Lives Matter. / "I need ammunition, not a ride." Zelensky
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#20252 User is offline   Chas_P 

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Posted 2022-August-07, 17:21

View PostGilithin, on 2022-August-06, 00:23, said:

I genuinely thought this piece was a tongue-in-cheek parody until I looked up M.B. Matthews. He appears to be something of a crackpot. As an example, he begins his article on US elections with:



Or there is his piece on abortion:



and



Yeah. Beyond the simple discussion of foetus versus baby, which apparently does not exist in conservative circles, the argument that women (and girls) are evil through the "indiscretion" of allowing themselves to get raped is more than just a little abhorrent.

There is also plenty more of this trash, most of it much worse than the quoted parts. If this is the guy that conservatives want to promote on forums such as this, they must have truly run out of sensible arguments and ideas.

There is absolutely nothing in this observation that has anything to do with the abortion issue. What we have here, ladies and gentlemen, is a classic example of, "If you don't like the message, kill the messenger." Don't change the subject Gilligan. Address the issue. As far as "crackpot" goes.......well that's in the eye of the beholder.
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#20253 User is offline   kenberg 

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Posted 2022-August-07, 19:28

Often when a piece is cited I look it up as I did with the M. B.Matthews article. It's at https://www.american...bout_trump.html
I found, as Chas says,

Quote

This most sensitive area of politics is a disaster. I believe the election was stolen and millions of others do. We now have evidence from many quarters that this is so. It cannot be permitted a repeat or there will be severe repercussions that will dwarf the current ones.


Ok, Mike Pence risked his life to certify the electoral results. He could well have been killed by the Trump inspired mob. I suggest listening to Pence instead of M. B. Matthews.

Gilithin went further, legitimately so. He looked up other articles by M. B. Mathews. One is on abortion. https://www.american...d_and_evil.html

Quote


Killing babies in or out of the womb is evil. It is a way for the baby to suffer the consequences of the mother's (and father's) indiscretion.


You, Chas, did not actually say what your opinions are. You cited an article by M. B. Matthews. I had never heard of M. B. Matthews before, but you brought him up. The part about stolen elections was enough for me, no reason to read anything else of what he said. But for anyone who wants to see more, Gilithin provides more.


So, in summary, you said nothing of what you think. You posted something by M. B. Matthews that denies the legitimacy of the election but you have an out, M. B. Matthews said it, you didn't say it, you just quoted it. And if anyone posts anything else by M. B. Matthews you can of course claim this is unfair since you did not post that piece by M. B. Matthews. Anyway, M. B. Matthews said it, you didn't, so that's that.


So you get us to waste a bunch of time.Well, if I waste my time I have no one to blame but myself. Anyway, enough said about someone who still thinks the election was stolen. Let M. B. Matthews slide back into well-deserved obscurity.
Ken
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#20254 User is offline   Winstonm 

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Posted 2022-August-09, 14:21

When will the Republican Party adopt brown shirts as their uniform?
"Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." Black Lives Matter. / "I need ammunition, not a ride." Zelensky
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#20255 User is offline   y66 

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Posted 2022-August-10, 07:19

Zero inflation in July. The dude is on a roll.
If you lose all hope, you can always find it again -- Richard Ford in The Sportswriter
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#20256 User is offline   Winstonm 

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Posted 2022-August-10, 07:21

It occurs to me that I have been wrong all this time, that indeed, there truly is a gigantic conspiracy, a global conspiracy of the reasonable and sane to marginalize and reduce the power of the irrational and the conmen.
How I missed seeing this before, I can't say. But now I say, sign me up. Irrationality rules!Posted Image
"Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." Black Lives Matter. / "I need ammunition, not a ride." Zelensky
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#20257 User is offline   y66 

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Posted 2022-August-10, 10:14

Quote of the day: "I had no choice".
If you lose all hope, you can always find it again -- Richard Ford in The Sportswriter
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#20258 User is offline   Winstonm 

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Posted 2022-August-10, 16:35

Quote

Trump has suggested on many occasions that people who invoke their right against self-incrimination are guilty. "You see the mob takes the Fifth," Trump said during a 2016 rally in Iowa. "If you're innocent, why are you taking the Fifth Amendment?"


Today, Trump invoked the 5th amendment over 400 times.
"Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." Black Lives Matter. / "I need ammunition, not a ride." Zelensky
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#20259 User is online   akwoo 

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Posted 2022-August-10, 22:02

View PostWinstonm, on 2022-August-10, 07:21, said:

It occurs to me that I have been wrong all this time, that indeed, there truly is a gigantic conspiracy, a global conspiracy of the reasonable and sane to marginalize and reduce the power of the irrational and the conmen.
How I missed seeing this before, I can't say. But now I say, sign me up. Irrationality rules!Posted Image



I think there is something serious to say about this.

We are slowly creating a world that in which those with certain types of cognitive gifts have huge advantages and those without such gifts have very little of a future.

What we're seeing everywhere now in politics is a rebellion, a refusal of the less intelligent to be marginalized by a society organized in such fashion.

If we don't make sure that the stupid have a future in our society, we will not have a future society.

I don't know how we accomplish this.
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#20260 User is offline   johnu 

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Posted 2022-August-11, 00:57

View PostWinstonm, on 2022-August-10, 16:35, said:



Today, Trump invoked the 5th amendment over 400 times.

I feel I have to defend the former Manchurian President Trump. In Trump's defense, when asked to state his name, he was completely honest and did not say he was John Barron, John Miller, David Dennison, or Jim, his best friend and very very substantial guy.
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