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Has U.S. Democracy Been Trumped? Bernie Sanders wants to know who owns America?

#18461 User is online   kenberg 

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Posted 2021-July-01, 13:56

View Posty66, on 2021-July-01, 06:49, said:

Links omitted to reduce strain.


It's interesting to browse the rankings.
FDR is 3rd, TR is 4th. Two very different people with very different ideas.
And then Ike is 5th, Truman is 6th. Again, two very different people with very different ideas.

I was 6 when FDR died but as for Ike and Truman, I remember HST somewhat (the conflict with MacArthur for example) and definitely remember Ike. It was a time when I could wish the best for both a Republican president and with a Democrat president. I miss that.

Staying on a personal note: The first four presidents during my lifetime were FDR (3rd), then HST (6th), then Ike(5th), then JFK(8th). I have a generally positive view of the US. I suppose having four highly regarded presidents during my early years could have something to do with that. Of course none of them were perfect. But also they were not Trump.

Oh. And I went to MonroeHigh School. The pres, not the school, is ranked 12th. It's now called Global Arts Plus. This might be a symbol of something.

But as Bernstein says, we should not go overboard with making much out of these rankings.
Ken
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#18462 User is offline   johnu 

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Posted 2021-July-03, 15:33

GOP domestic terrorists 2nd amendment patriots are everywhere

11 'heavily armed men' claiming to 'not recognize our laws' in custody: Police

Quote

How charges against the Trump Organization could cramp Donald Trump's…
Why the Trump Organization indictment may be far less…

A bizarre incident unfolded Saturday morning in Wakefield, Massachusetts. According to local police: "During a motor vehicle stop, several heavily armed men claiming to be from a group that does not recognize our laws exited their vehicles and fled into the woodline" near Interstate Highway 95.

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#18463 User is offline   hrothgar 

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Posted 2021-July-03, 15:51

View Postjohnu, on 2021-July-03, 15:33, said:

GOP domestic terrorists 2nd amendment patriots are everywhere

11 'heavily armed men' claiming to 'not recognize our laws' in custody: Police


So, this all happened a few miles away from where I live.

In this case, the whack-a-doodles are NOT a right wing militia; rather they are some kind of weird "Moorish" militia.
If you google "Rise of the Moors", you can find some truly bizarre stuff.

I didn't have the patience to try and make sense of much of it.
Alderaan delenda est
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#18464 User is online   kenberg 

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Posted 2021-July-04, 06:46

View Posthrothgar, on 2021-July-03, 15:51, said:

So, this all happened a few miles away from where I live.

In this case, the whack-a-doodles are NOT a right wing militia; rather they are some kind of weird "Moorish" militia.
If you google "Rise of the Moors", you can find some truly bizarre stuff.

I didn't have the patience to try and make sense of much of it.


I did the google search and I completely agree with your last sentence. I like to think of myself as open to discussion on many topics but there are times when it is clear that there is no point in reading or listening to another word.
I accept that this can cut both ways, but that does not mean that there is no way to choose. I can be wrong but I am not a whack-a-doodle. Those guys are. And that's that.



Ken
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#18465 User is online   kenberg 

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Posted 2021-July-04, 07:11

Ok, it's the 4th. Time to say a few words.

The NYT had an article, by Robert Gottlieb, about a book that I recall knowing of, but not reading, when I was young.
Inside America by John Gunthe in 1947.
It was still very popular a few years later when I was old enough to pay attention to such things.
The local library is getting it for me from a more distant library.



Here is part of Gottlieb's description of Gunther.

Quote

Gunther was born in Chicago in 1901, went to the University of Chicago and then on to The Chicago Daily News, where in 1924 he scored with an eyewitness report on the Teapot Dome — not the tremendous scandal but the actual place (in Wyoming), to which no previous journalist had bothered to go. ("Teapot Dome has no resemblance whatever to a teapot or a dome.") By the next year he was in London for The Daily News, and soon was darting around Europe on missions to Berlin, Moscow, Rome, Paris, Poland, Spain, the Balkans and Scandinavia, before being given the Vienna bureau. It was as if he had been in training for "Inside Europe."

He managed to find time to marry Frances Fineman, also a journalist, with whom he shared a very long and very tortured marriage, not helped by either her obsessive attachment to Jawaharlal Nehru or John's wandering eye. (One woman on whom his eye had rested was Rebecca West, who referred to him in a letter to a friend as that "young and massive Adonis with curly blond hair.") But his most important, if platonic, relationship with a woman was with the famous journalist Dorothy Thompson — hers was the other clarion voice alerting America to the perils to democracy, to civilization, from Hitler, Mussolini, Stalin. The close bond between these two "competitors" never slackened until Thompson's death, in 1961.





Apparently, the book is 900 pages long. I haven't done 900 pages since War and Peace was assigned in Humanities 1 all those years ago. But there is always a chance.


Quote

One of the things that makes it so alive is Gunther's curiosity about his own country; he knew Latin America, he knew Europe, he knew Asia, but he didn't know America. "The United States, like a cobra, lay before me, seductive, terrifying and immense," he wrote. "'Inside U.S.A.' was the hardest task I ever undertook." He was yet again an outsider, looking in. "Not only was I trying to write for the man from Mars; I was one."


I might like this.

Anyway, the weather is good, company is coming, enjoy the day.
Ken
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#18466 User is offline   y66 

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Posted 2021-July-04, 07:16

The world is smaller than we think. A building at the end of my street, three blocks away, was once the headquarters of the American Nazi Party. It's now a coffee shop.
If you lose all hope, you can always find it again -- Richard Ford in The Sportswriter
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#18467 User is offline   y66 

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Posted 2021-July-04, 07:26

Matt Yglesias said:

I enjoy @kdrum in cranky mode, but I wish he'd tried to sugarcoat this a little to persuade more people.

Kevin Drum said:

https://jabberwockin...blame-liberals/

Now: maybe you're personally delighted by the Democratic Party's leftward march and maybe you're not. It doesn't matter. Despite endless hopeful invocations of "but polls show that people like our positions," the truth is that the Democratic Party has been pulled far enough left that even lots of non-crazy people find us just plain scary—something that Fox News takes vigorous advantage of. From an electoral point of view, the story here is consistent: Democrats have stoked the culture wars by getting more extreme on social issues and Republicans have used this to successfully cleave away a segment of both the non-college white vote and, more recently, the non-college nonwhite vote.

So why is it conventional wisdom to point to conservatives as "culture war mongers"? As I've mentioned before, it's a straightforward consequence of behavioral economics. For most people, losing something is far more painful than the pleasure of gaining something of equivalent value. And since conservatives are "losing" the customs and hierarchies that they've long lived with, their reaction is far more intense than the liberal reaction toward winning the changes they desire. This produces more outrageous behavior from conservatives even though liberals are actually the ur-source of polarization.

Here's the nickel summary of all this:

  • Since 1994, Democrats have moved left far more than Republicans have moved right.
  • This has produced lots of safe states in liberal places like California and Massachusetts but has steadily pulled Democrats farther and farther away from median states like Iowa and Ohio.
  • Recently, white academic theories of racism—and probably the whole woke movement in general—have turned off many moderate Black and Hispanic voters.¹ Ditto for liberal dismissal of crime and safety issues. Hispanics in particular moved in Trump's direction despite—or maybe because of—his position on immigration and the wall.
  • Democrats will remain on an electoral knife edge forever unless they can pull themselves back toward the center.

This is obviously not a popular proposal among the white activist class. But a dispassionate look at voting patterns hardly allows any other conclusion. Moving to the left may help galvanize the progressive base—which is good!—but if it's not done with empathy and tact it risks outrunning the vast middle part of the country, which progressive activists seem completely uninterested in talking to.

It is well within our power to break our two-decade 50-50 deadlock and become routine winners in national politics. All it takes is a moderation of our positions from "pretty far left" to "pretty liberal." That's all. But who's got the courage to say so?

¹And for God's sake, please don't insult my intelligence by pretending that wokeness and cancel culture are all just figments of the conservative imagination. Sure, they overreact to this stuff, but it really exists, it really is a liberal invention, and it really does make even moderate conservatives feel like their entire lives are being held up to a spotlight and found wanting.


If you lose all hope, you can always find it again -- Richard Ford in The Sportswriter
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#18468 User is online   Winstonm 

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Posted 2021-July-04, 07:53

The reason Hispanics moved Trumpward was his machismo matched their religious and cultural models. The same reasons the southern Baptist and other evangelicals are so strongly Trump.

Quote

¹And for God's sake, please don't insult my intelligence by pretending that wokeness and cancel culture are all just figments of the conservative imagination. Sure, they overreact to this stuff, but it really exists, it really is a liberal invention, and it really does make even moderate conservatives feel like their entire lives are being held up to a spotlight and found wanting.


It is difficult for me to stay focused on a reply as this is one of the most odious and objectionable paragraphs I have ever read.

In 1921 a young black shoeshiner was arrested in Tulsa, accused of an incident in a hotel elevator with the white girl who ran the elevator. Before sundown, a lynch mob had gathered outside the jail, demanding that the sheriff turn over the inmate to the mob. (This young man was totally exonerated later). A few WWI veterans who were also black armed themselves and came to stop the lynching. At some point shots rang out and people fled.

The next morning an army of white men attacked the black community, burning houses and killing families - an estimated 300 were killed - an entire community was burned to the ground.

No one was ever arrested or held accountable for the attack. The story of the massacre was never told or taught - it was hidden from public view for almost 100 years.

If the snowflake evangelicals can't handle being awakened to facts like this then let them burn in the hell of their own making. Being "woke" to truth is a good thing - it makes you deal with what is rather than what you want it to be. And that is called reality.

And reality is that being awakened to truth, aka "woke", is a good thing while shunning, aka "cancel culture", has been around since the middle ages - so don't try to claim these are inventions of the left.

To say these are inventions is to hype the dishonesty of people like Tucker Carlson.
"Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." Black Lives Matter.
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#18469 User is online   kenberg 

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Posted 2021-July-05, 10:02

If someone were to ask "Ken, are you woke?" I would say "Oh, probably not". There are a lot of categories and questions that I try to avoid.

I found the Drum article interesting, I can be confident that I found it interesting. But am I woke? Beats me. I am certain that I don't watch Tucker Carlson. I have only a vague idea of who he is but I am certain that I don't watch him. But I am uncertain about whether I am or am not woke. That probably means that I am not. And I am ok with that, which probably is strong evidence that I am not woke.


Yes, that seems to be the logical conclusion, I am not woke.
Ken
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#18470 User is online   Winstonm 

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Posted 2021-July-05, 11:17



Quote

In order to secure Sen. Joe Manchin's (D-W.Va.) vote to begin debate on the For The People Act — a sweeping voting rights, campaign finance, redistricting and ethics reform bill — Democratic Party leadership had to accommodate his views.

The For The People Act's voting rights provisions, largely written by the late Democratic congressman and civil rights leader John Lewis, set a national floor for state voting rules that would make it easier to vote. But in his compromise proposal, Manchin suggested that a national voter identification law be added to the bill.





I have no problem with this idea from Manchin. It gets down to the implementation. It seems natural to tie voter registration to the U.S. census and have the registration good for 10 years until the next census.
"Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." Black Lives Matter.
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#18471 User is online   Winstonm 

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Posted 2021-July-05, 11:28

View Postkenberg, on 2021-July-05, 10:02, said:

If someone were to ask "Ken, are you woke?" I would say "Oh, probably not". There are a lot of categories and questions that I try to avoid.

I found the Drum article interesting, I can be confident that I found it interesting. But am I woke? Beats me. I am certain that I don't watch Tucker Carlson. I have only a vague idea of who he is but I am certain that I don't watch him. But I am uncertain about whether I am or am not woke. That probably means that I am not. And I am ok with that, which probably is strong evidence that I am not woke.


Yes, that seems to be the logical conclusion, I am not woke.


But of course you are - don't you know? If you are not a slobbering, AR-15 toting, mask-disavowing Trump supporter you are "woke". Just ask Tucker. He hardly ever lies.

Don't you see? "Woke" and "cancel culture" are inventions of the left created in order to frame the right - a false flag, if you will - to make the patriotic, god-fearing we're always "right" look guilty of deceit and selfishness - when it is the communist left with their push for historical accuracy while shunning those who try to hide accuracy in tall tales who are the guilty. Time to storm the capitol! Kill! Kill!! Kill!!!
"Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." Black Lives Matter.
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#18472 User is online   kenberg 

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Posted 2021-July-05, 11:58

View PostWinstonm, on 2021-July-05, 11:28, said:

But of course you are - don't you know? If you are not a slobbering, AR-15 toting, mask-disavowing Trump supporter you are "woke". Just ask Tucker. He hardly ever lies.

Don't you see? "Woke" and "cancel culture" are inventions of the left created in order to frame the right - a false flag, if you will - to make the patriotic, god-fearing we're always "right" look guilty of deceit and selfishness - when it is the communist left with their push for historical accuracy while shunning those who try to hide accuracy in tall tales who are the guilty. Time to storm the capitol! Kill! Kill!! Kill!!!


I think this is (part of) what Drum was getting at. There are a lot of us who favor various plans for expanding opportunity but who are not woke. The Dem leadership has to decide how to treat us.

I had not really thought of whether I was or was not woke, but I think I am not. It seems that if someone has woken, they would be aware that they have woken.
Ken
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#18473 User is offline   barmar 

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Posted 2021-July-05, 20:12

View PostWinstonm, on 2021-July-04, 07:53, said:

If the snowflake evangelicals can't handle being awakened to facts like this then let them burn in the hell of their own making. Being "woke" to truth is a good thing - it makes you deal with what is rather than what you want it to be. And that is called reality.

And reality is that being awakened to truth, aka "woke", is a good thing while shunning, aka "cancel culture", has been around since the middle ages - so don't try to claim these are inventions of the left.

To say these are inventions is to hype the dishonesty of people like Tucker Carlson.

I don't think that asking people to acknowledge the Tulsa massacre is the kind of "wokeness" that people object to. What bothers them are all the "holier than thou" attitudes. Also, when woke people patronize the groups that they're supposedly trying to support.

I think an example is the white people who campaign to get sports teams to change their names or mascots based on indigenous people because they consider them to be racist. They may be offensive, but in many cases those groups haven't actually taken much offense from them, and they never asked for anyone to change them. They're more interested in policies that help them financially than worrying about these minor slights.

On the other hand, many blacks are truly offended by the monuments to Confederate leaders. So the campaigns to remove them are not inappropriate wokeness. The same with Black Lives Matter, and transgender rights movements.

#18474 User is online   pilowsky 

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Posted 2021-July-06, 01:29

Let's try and do this as a syllogism.
It is a fact that some people believe that being a member of a particular ethnic group MEANS as a logical consequence that the person is better, smarter or more worthy than another person.
If a person believes this, then they are racist.
If they don't believe it, then they are not racist.
What if they don't believe it but also don't believe that anyone else believes it either? Such people are not 'woke'. They may also be racist - I don't know - I haven't met all of them.

I once met a Professor from Mississippi. At the time, he was one of the most revered scientists in the world. He told me that "on average black people were not as smart as white people".
This happened in 1986. Not woke and a racist. If he was asked to conduct an employment interview and two equally well-qualified people were candidates, I doubt the black woman would get the job.
I just checked. The Department website where he worked has a group photograph of 50 people. Three of them are black. Here are the population demographics for Mississippi:
Mississippi Demographics ~ White: 58%, Black or African American: 38%, Other: 14%.
In the continental USA Mississippi has the largest percentage of African-Americans of any state (2019 census).

Clearly, black people in Mississippi do NOT have the same opportunities to gain education and status in that part of America.
On the other side of the coin, when people learn that I am Jewish, I am commonly told that I should feel lucky because Jewish people are smarter.
Some people even believe that Jews are God's chosen people, which would be great if I wasn't an atheist.
Places where this particular form of racism does not occur include South Africa, England and most of the Middle East.
Come to think of it, next time someone says it, I'll ask for a list of places (outside Israel) where most people believe this universal truth. When the pandemic finishes, I might visit.



What kind of democracy is it when people believe that you have to 'earn' the 'right' to vote, get health care housing and education, but the 'right' to be alive, free and happy (and own an assault rifle) is unalienable?

non est deus ex machina; även maskiner behöver lite kärlek, J'ai toujours misé sur l'étrange gentillesse des robots.
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#18475 User is online   Winstonm 

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Posted 2021-July-06, 07:40

View Postkenberg, on 2021-July-05, 11:58, said:

I think this is (part of) what Drum was getting at. There are a lot of us who favor various plans for expanding opportunity but who are not woke. The Dem leadership has to decide how to treat us.

I had not really thought of whether I was or was not woke, but I think I am not. It seems that if someone has woken, they would be aware that they have woken.


Although this is behind a paywall, it is a good comment on this "woke" issue, while Max Boot is hardly a liberal.


Quote

“For the Chinese Communist Party, history is legitimacy,” journalist Ian Johnson writes in the New York Review of Books. “Just to make sure that history really appears to be on its side, the party spends an inordinate amount of time writing and rewriting it and preventing others from wielding their pens.” Indeed, the Communist Party is constantly on guard against examples of “historical nihilism” such as “distorting the history of the party or attacking its leadership.



Comparing China to the U.S.: https://www.cbsnews....ory-state-bans/
Keep in mind Critical Race Theory is a Republican strawman used to attack the teaching of any history that is not "approved" by Republicans.
"Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." Black Lives Matter.
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#18476 User is online   kenberg 

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Posted 2021-July-06, 08:39

View PostWinstonm, on 2021-July-06, 07:40, said:


Although this is behind a paywall, it is a good comment on this "woke" issue, while Max Boot is hardly a liberal.





Comparing China to the U.S.: https://www.cbsnews....ory-state-bans/
Keep in mind Critical Race Theory is a Republican strawman used to attack the teaching of any history that is not "approved" by Republicans.


Not for the first time, I like it simple. I am not woke. I hadn't thought about it one way or the other before, but, prompted by the discussion of the Drum blog, I thought a bit and decided I am not. Regardless of what Tucker Carlson might say ( that's from your first response) or what Max Boot thinks about China, what I am saying is that, after thinking it over, I am not woke.


If I am unaware of being woke, I must not be woke. Non cogito, ergo non sum. (My attempt at Latin).


Perhaps more accurately, I do not want to describe myself as woke. I would feel obligated to first understand what it means. Surely it means different things to different people. But whatever consensus there might be, or come to be, about the meaning, I am pretty sure I am not woke.

I really hope we do not get into a battle of the Woke versus the Unwoke. If I am going to fight, I at least like to know what I am fighting about.

I'm going away for a couple of days, so I will not be posting any such brilliant analysis for a bit.
Ken
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#18477 User is online   Winstonm 

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Posted 2021-July-06, 09:52

View Postkenberg, on 2021-July-06, 08:39, said:

Not for the first time, I like it simple. I am not woke. I hadn't thought about it one way or the other before, but, prompted by the discussion of the Drum blog, I thought a bit and decided I am not. Regardless of what Tucker Carlson might say ( that's from your first response) or what Max Boot thinks about China, what I am saying is that, after thinking it over, I am not woke.


If I am unaware of being woke, I must not be woke. Non cogito, ergo non sum. (My attempt at Latin).


Perhaps more accurately, I do not want to describe myself as woke. I would feel obligated to first understand what it means. Surely it means different things to different people. But whatever consensus there might be, or come to be, about the meaning, I am pretty sure I am not woke.

I really hope we do not get into a battle of the Woke versus the Unwoke. If I am going to fight, I at least like to know what I am fighting about.

I'm going away for a couple of days, so I will not be posting any such brilliant analysis for a bit.


For when you return - and have a good trip!


If the state of Maryland had required you to teach that all Fermat numbers were prime because to do otherwise would diminish Fermat's standing in the eyes of your students, would you be woke or un-woke?
"Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." Black Lives Matter.
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#18478 User is offline   Gilithin 

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Posted 2021-July-06, 14:02

View Postkenberg, on 2021-July-06, 08:39, said:

Not for the first time, I like it simple. I am not woke.

3 questions Ken:-

1. Are you aware of issues concerning social justice?
2. Are you aware of issues around racial equality?
3. Are you aware of issues surrounding inequality based on sexual orientation or gender?
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#18479 User is offline   mikeh 

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Posted 2021-July-06, 17:16

I’m confident only that I don’t know what ‘woke’ means to all who hear or use the term. Indeed, a quick google search shows an initial meaning (being aware of and paying attention to systemic biases and injustices) and exhibiting a pretentious concern about such things. I suspect that the latter definition is somewhat influenced by conservative commentators who wish to deride the very concept of systemic injustices, by turning woke, a word with an (to me) admirable meaning into a derogatory term, intended to get people to ignore the underlying reality by dismissing those who want to bring it into the open.

However, I also suspect that there are those, especially young and privileged, who are indeed pretentious and ostentatious in their claims to be woke.

When I was an undergraduate many of those whose spiritual descendants are now vociferously woke paraded around campus clutching their little red book of Mao’s aphorisms, and/or wanted to discuss Marxist-Leninist dialectics.

Speaking to Ken, based on your posts over the years I strongly suspect that you are quietly woke😀

Being woke does not, to me, mean that one should join a BLM march or write letters to the editor. Sure, one can do those things if one wants to, but I think wokeness is an awareness more than it is an activity or public performance (I do NOT mean to denigrate those who march or write letters and do not equate doing so with being pretentious). Iow, I think that it’s entirely a good thing when woke people protest in various non-violent ways but that one needn’t protest in order to be considered woke. One merely needs to be alive to the various biases and injustices that permeate every society of which I have any shred of knowledge, going back through history.

I do think that all woke people owe a duty to their society to vote, and to vote appropriately, if voting is possible. And we owe a duty not to remain silent when friends and family espouse bigotry, as so many do, including a lot of fundamentally good but oblivious people. That doesn’t mean being rude or insulting. But one can quietly point to examples of systemic issues in current society, and ask gentle questions about whether they think those things are fair. Almost always, they will admit that things aren’t as rosy as they were claiming moments ago. One doesn’t need to pay a huge amount of attention to the news to be aware of widespread systemic bias in our western culture even in these relatively wake days.
'one of the great markers of the advance of human kindness is the howls you will hear from the Men of God' Johann Hari
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#18480 User is offline   hrothgar 

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Posted 2021-July-06, 17:32

https://www.vox.com/...ion-controversy
Alderaan delenda est
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