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Has U.S. Democracy Been Trumped? Bernie Sanders wants to know who owns America?

#10021 User is offline   johnu 

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Posted 2018-May-01, 20:35

View Postkenberg, on 2018-May-01, 18:33, said:

Probably so, I have not studied it. But after 9-11 there was naturally a lot of talk about who should have done what differently. I am fine with examining such things so that we can do better in the future, I am not so fine with it as a way of blaming someone. At bridge, I figure that the first partner to start yelling is usually the one who made the error. And even when not, it's not a productive approach to the future. There were earlier attempts to bring buildings down. Oklahoma City, for example, although not the same culprits. Nobody could really say "Gee, who would have thought someone would do something like that?".

So sure, examine what went wrong. But we should do so to better prepare for the future.


As that famous saying goes, "Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."

Before 9/11, there were intelligence warnings about potential hijackings by al Qaeda so it wasn't a surprise to those who should have known. Clinton officials warned Bush officials about threats to the US and were generally ignored. If you're not interested in finding out how and why mistakes were made, you don't have much of a chance to prevent similar mistake in the future.
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#10022 User is offline   barmar 

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Posted 2018-May-02, 09:00

View Postjohnu, on 2018-May-01, 17:39, said:

https://www.nytimes....1-warnings.html

Nobody knows if heightened security at airports before 9/11 could have prevented the hijacking of planes. What we know now is that the GWB administration chose to ignore any warnings and didn't increase security.

To be fair, while the CIA seemed to be quite certain about the pending attack, Bush was getting conflicting advice from other parties suggesting that it was a smokescreen.

Sometimes it's really hard for leaders to win. When there's an impending hurricane or blizzard, often mayors will assume the word and issue evacuation orders; if the storm ends up not being as serious as expected, they'll get blamed for overreacting and causing unnecessary panic and economic impact. But no one wants to be the next mayor who underestimates the next Katrina or Andrew.

#10023 User is online   Winstonm 

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Posted 2018-May-02, 11:20

From the "How Ironic Is This" department:

Trump has now hired Bill Clinton's impeachment attorney. :o
"Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." Black Lives Matter. / "I need ammunition, not a ride." Zelensky
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#10024 User is offline   johnu 

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Posted 2018-May-02, 12:32

View Postbarmar, on 2018-May-02, 09:00, said:

To be fair, while the CIA seemed to be quite certain about the pending attack, Bush was getting conflicting advice from other parties suggesting that it was a smokescreen


Bush's solution was to do worse than nothing. If you recall, the so-called 20th hijacker was arrested the month before the attacks because of concerns that came up when he was taking flight training. Some FBI muckety mucks blocked a full investigation of him before the attacks. If there had been a full alert, maybe the outcome would have been different.

View Postbarmar, on 2018-May-02, 09:00, said:

Sometimes it's really hard for leaders to win. When there's an impending hurricane or blizzard, often mayors will assume the word and issue evacuation orders; if the storm ends up not being as serious as expected, they'll get blamed for overreacting and causing unnecessary panic and economic impact. But no one wants to be the next mayor who underestimates the next Katrina or Andrew.


Or the next president who didn't prepare for the next 9/11.
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#10025 User is offline   kenberg 

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Posted 2018-May-02, 13:16

Well, Caesar was warned about the Ides of March. Ok, he should have listened.
I really do favor looking into what went wrong, I did not intend anything I said to be taken otherwise. My guess is that any hones investigation will find several overlooked warnings. FDR was criticized for Pearl Harbor, Hillary Clinton for Benghazi, over and over, and many things in between. At the time of 9-11 there was some claim, perhaps accurate, that the intelligence community had far too few agents who were fluent in Arabic. So my Republican friends, some of them, concluded 9-11 was Bill Clinton's fault for not correcting this. The San Francisco earthquake? Pin the blame on Mame boys. We have Rita Hayworth's word on that.

Look over what happened? Sure. But when the Ds find that all the Rs are guilty and all the Ds blameless, and the Rs find that all the Ds are guilty and all the Rs blameless, I get a little tired of listening.
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#10026 User is online   Winstonm 

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Posted 2018-May-02, 14:02

View Postkenberg, on 2018-May-02, 13:16, said:

Well, Caesar was warned about the Ides of March. Ok, he should have listened.
I really do favor looking into what went wrong, I did not intend anything I said to be taken otherwise. My guess is that any hones investigation will find several overlooked warnings. FDR was criticized for Pearl Harbor, Hillary Clinton for Benghazi, over and over, and many things in between. At the time of 9-11 there was some claim, perhaps accurate, that the intelligence community had far too few agents who were fluent in Arabic. So my Republican friends, some of them, concluded 9-11 was Bill Clinton's fault for not correcting this. The San Francisco earthquake? Pin the blame on Mame boys. We have Rita Hayworth's word on that.

Look over what happened? Sure. But when the Ds find that all the Rs are guilty and all the Ds blameless, and the Rs find that all the Ds are guilty and all the Rs blameless, I get a little tired of listening.


I agree completely. Bill Clinton's pard of Marc Rich was ridiculous. Likewise, Fredo's pardo of Arpaio. I am in favor of removing by amendment much of the presidential pardon authority as norms that should have sufficed to stop abuse have been shredded.
"Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." Black Lives Matter. / "I need ammunition, not a ride." Zelensky
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#10027 User is offline   johnu 

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Posted 2018-May-02, 14:48

View Postkenberg, on 2018-May-02, 13:16, said:

Look over what happened? Sure. But when the Ds find that all the Rs are guilty and all the Ds blameless, and the Rs find that all the Ds are guilty and all the Rs blameless, I get a little tired of listening.


Sounds like another Fox (aka faux/fake) equivalency to me. Both sides are wrong so neither side is wrong...

If you go back to the Watergate days, the Watergate hearings were mostly bipartisan. Congress is supposed to one of the 3 branches of government. Those days are long past.

In particular, house Republicans seem to have abandoned any pretense of being an independent branch of government. E.G. Devin Nunes, the chair of the House Intelligence committee has vacated his position to be President Dennison's flunkie, hand carrying evidence gathered in his committee directly to the White House, and coordinating with the White House in what the NYT is calling potential obstruction of justice https://www.nytimes....on-justice.html among other flunkie acts. The House Freedom Caucus (an oxymoron if I ever heard one) is threatening to impeach Rod Rosenstein because he wouldn't hand over confidential information about the Russian scandal to them so they could presumably forward them to Dennison and his lawyers.

Hmmm, and I'm sure you have heard that the Republicans on the House Intelligence Committee closed the investigation of the Russia scandal in a party line vote and found no collusion. Very nice that they didn't issue many of the subpoenas that the Democrats wanted, or that they allowed many witnesses to avoid answering questions without using every means at their command. I guess they didn't have enough facts to come to a conclusion B-)
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#10028 User is offline   kenberg 

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Posted 2018-May-02, 15:34

View Postjohnu, on 2018-May-02, 14:48, said:

Sounds like another Fox (aka faux/fake) equivalency to me. Both sides are wrong so neither side is wrong...

If you go back to the Watergate days, the Watergate hearings were mostly bipartisan. Congress is supposed to one of the 3 branches of government. Those days are long past.

In particular, house Republicans seem to have abandoned any pretense of being an independent branch of government. E.G. Devin Nunes, the chair of the House Intelligence committee has vacated his position to be President Dennison's flunkie, hand carrying evidence gathered in his committee directly to the White House, and coordinating with the White House in what the NYT is calling potential obstruction of justice https://www.nytimes....on-justice.html among other flunkie acts. The House Freedom Caucus (an oxymoron if I ever heard one) is threatening to impeach Rod Rosenstein because he wouldn't hand over confidential information about the Russian scandal to them so they could presumably forward them to Dennison and his lawyers.

Hmmm, and I'm sure you have heard that the Republicans on the House Intelligence Committee closed the investigation of the Russia scandal in a party line vote and found no collusion. Very nice that they didn't issue many of the subpoenas that the Democrats wanted, or that they allowed many witnesses to avoid answering questions without using every means at their command. I guess they didn't have enough facts to come to a conclusion B-)


And it sounds to me like you are one of those guys who, if a person disagrees with you, brings up Fox News. It simply is beyond you that someone who does not listen to Fox News, and most certainly I do not, could not find your argument clear and convincing.

We can get you and a Trumpie together and you can shout Fox News Fox News Fox News and he can shout Fake News Fake news Fake News. Oops. That's False equivalency False Equivalency False Equivalency.

I am no wise pundit but I am an absolute authority on whether I am getting really tired of this Fox News Fake News False Equivalency stuff. I am.

I think I need a break. At least long enough to mow the grass. After I finish, I can see that I have actually accomplished something. I don't want to come online and get into a discussion of Fox News. There I feel I have accomplished nothing.
Ken
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#10029 User is offline   ldrews 

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Posted 2018-May-02, 17:01

Looks like the resolution of the North Korean situation is starting to jell. Apparently North Korea is preparing to release 3 US prisoners. It appears that the "summit" meeting will be held in the Peace House in the DMZ. Kim Jong Un is making all kinds of conciliatory statements.

A group of Republican Congressmen are nominating Trump for the Nobel Peace Prize.

Not too shabby for an idiot, don't you agree?
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#10030 User is offline   ldrews 

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Posted 2018-May-02, 17:42

Kanye West, Candace Owens, and Chance the Rapper seem to be causing quite a stir in the African/American community. Kanye's support of Trump, Candace and Kanye's views on slavery, victimhood, and the Democratic "plantation" are pushing some people to rethink their assumptions and their political loyalties.

If 20% of the African/American community starts voting Republican, Democrats are toast.
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#10031 User is offline   Al_U_Card 

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Posted 2018-May-03, 06:26

View Postkenberg, on 2018-May-02, 15:34, said:

And it sounds to me like you are one of those guys who, if a person disagrees with you, brings up Fox News. It simply is beyond you that someone who does not listen to Fox News, and most certainly I do not, could not find your argument clear and convincing.

We can get you and a Trumpie together and you can shout Fox News Fox News Fox News and he can shout Fake News Fake news Fake News. Oops. That's False equivalency False Equivalency False Equivalency.

I am no wise pundit but I am an absolute authority on whether I am getting really tired of this Fox News Fake News False Equivalency stuff. I am.

I think I need a break. At least long enough to mow the grass. After I finish, I can see that I have actually accomplished something. I don't want to come online and get into a discussion of Fox News. There I feel I have accomplished nothing.

Interestingly, I had never considered Fox News worthy of attention before this thread. CNN was my source for online and TV "news". Now I have Fox to compare to and the polarization potential is staggering. Sometimes I wonder if they are reporting on the same events ... such are the different conclusions reached about the same situations. Perspective is everything apparently.
The Grand Design, reflected in the face of Chaos...it's a fluke!
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#10032 User is online   Winstonm 

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Posted 2018-May-03, 08:07

View PostAl_U_Card, on 2018-May-03, 06:26, said:

Interestingly, I had never considered Fox News worthy of attention before this thread. CNN was my source for online and TV "news". Now I have Fox to compare to and the polarization potential is staggering. Sometimes I wonder if they are reporting on the same events ... such are the different conclusions reached about the same situations. Perspective is everything apparently.


The difference is one of news compared to propaganda.
"Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." Black Lives Matter. / "I need ammunition, not a ride." Zelensky
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#10033 User is online   Winstonm 

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Posted 2018-May-03, 08:18

I am not one to credit or blame a president for everything right or wrong. After all, there are three equal branches of government. With that said, there are some outcomes that can be traced directly to the man in the oval office. What are the direct accomplishments of the present guy?

1) Reduced government support for the Affordable Care Act and increased health insurance premiums for some.
2) A $1.5 trillion increase in national debt in order to primarily finance tax cuts to corporations, which is being used primarily for stock buybacks.
3) An unprecedented level of ethics problems with his appointees

Anything other than these items is open to interpretation. For example, who is playing whom for a sucker when it comes to North Korea?
"Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." Black Lives Matter. / "I need ammunition, not a ride." Zelensky
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#10034 User is offline   Al_U_Card 

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Posted 2018-May-03, 09:53

View PostWinstonm, on 2018-May-03, 08:07, said:

The difference is one of news compared to propaganda.

Which one? ;)
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#10035 User is online   Winstonm 

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Posted 2018-May-03, 12:31

View PostAl_U_Card, on 2018-May-03, 09:53, said:

Which one? ;)


If you can't figure that out unaided, you are helpless.
"Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." Black Lives Matter. / "I need ammunition, not a ride." Zelensky
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#10036 User is offline   johnu 

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Posted 2018-May-03, 14:15

View Postldrews, on 2018-May-02, 17:01, said:

Looks like the resolution of the North Korean situation is starting to jell. Apparently North Korea is preparing to release 3 US prisoners. It appears that the "summit" meeting will be held in the Peace House in the DMZ. Kim Jong Un is making all kinds of conciliatory statements.

A group of Republican Congressmen are nominating Trump for the Nobel Peace Prize.

Not too shabby for an idiot, don't you agree?


Dennison tweated,

"As everybody is aware, the past Administration has long been asking for three hostages to be released from a North Korean Labor camp, but to no avail. Stay tuned!"

I think everybody can agree that getting North Korea prisoners returns is a good thing, yet it's another opportunity for Dennison to trot out a totally unneccesary lie to disparage Obama. Only 1 of the 3 was detained during Obama's administration. The other 2 were arrested after Obama left office. I'll leave it to you to decide who was the next president.

BTW. Taking foreign citizens hostage on made up or the flimsiest of charges has long been used by rogue governments to gain leverage over other governments. It costs them nothing to release them and in return, they are frequently rewarded for their behavior.
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#10037 User is offline   ldrews 

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Posted 2018-May-03, 16:04

View Postjohnu, on 2018-May-03, 14:15, said:

Dennison tweated,

"As everybody is aware, the past Administration has long been asking for three hostages to be released from a North Korean Labor camp, but to no avail. Stay tuned!"

I think everybody can agree that getting North Korea prisoners returns is a good thing, yet it's another opportunity for Dennison to trot out a totally unneccesary lie to disparage Obama. Only 1 of the 3 was detained during Obama's administration. The other 2 were arrested after Obama left office. I'll leave it to you to decide who was the next president.

BTW. Taking foreign citizens hostage on made up or the flimsiest of charges has long been used by rogue governments to gain leverage over other governments. It costs them nothing to release them and in return, they are frequently rewarded for their behavior.


Something you could have accomplished easily, right?
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#10038 User is offline   Al_U_Card 

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Posted 2018-May-03, 21:04

View PostWinstonm, on 2018-May-03, 12:31, said:

If you can't figure that out unaided, you are helpless.

And you are humorless.
The Grand Design, reflected in the face of Chaos...it's a fluke!
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#10039 User is online   Winstonm 

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Posted 2018-May-03, 21:35

View PostAl_U_Card, on 2018-May-03, 21:04, said:

And you are humorless.


False equivalencies are no longer a laughing matter.
"Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." Black Lives Matter. / "I need ammunition, not a ride." Zelensky
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#10040 User is offline   johnu 

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Posted 2018-May-04, 01:40

View Postldrews, on 2018-May-03, 16:04, said:

Something you could have accomplished easily, right?


I guess we will never know since I am honest enough to acknowledge that Dennison swamped me in the electoral college vote. I did tie for 3rd place with 0 votes along with 300 million other Americans.
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