[helene_t]

2♠-p-p-x
p-(picked up bidding cards, looking for card to lead)

At this point opener asked advancer: "Are you passing?", to which advancer replied "Oops!"

One problem is that the act of picking up the bidding cards in practice (though contrary to the regulation, right?) is used (at this club) as a way of saying "pass". However, it was clear (or at least most likely?) that advancer didn't mean to pass but to make an opening lead, assuming that the auction had already finished.

Suppose advancer, having been made aware that she her partner had doubled, wants to bid something. Is advancer deamed to have passed? Do you allow her to make a bid?

[campboy]

The relevant regulations are as follows (White Book, p11).

Quote

Some players do not always complete the auction properly by laying a pass card on the table in the pass out seat. Usually this does not cause a problem. When a player acts in such a way as to indicate they have passed and an opening lead is faced they have passed. An action may be deemed by the TD to be a pass in the pass out seat (e.g. general ‘waft’ of the hand, tapping cards already there, picking up the cards).

So there are two situations where a player can be deemed to have passed: if the opening lead has already been made, or if the player was in the pass-out seat. Neither of these apply, so advancer has not yet passed.

[sanst]

campboy, on 2015-June-26, 04:22, said:

The relevant regulations are as follows (White Book, p11).

These are not the relevant regulations. AFAIK there is no regulation about this situation in Holland, so the TD has to make his or her own decission. I would decide that the advancer has passed and let the bidding go on and warn about the use of UI.
Besides, though the White Book gives information about what to do in the pass out seat, that doesn't apply to this and you can't conclude from that that the advancer has not yet passed. It' simply not covered by the quote you gave. So, in England it also up to the TD.
And yes, picking up cards as a way of passing is against the laws.

[blackshoe]

The title of this topic specifies EBU.

No call has been made, but the same regulation Campboy quoted specifies

Quote

At the end of the auction the calls should remain in place until the opening lead has been faced and all explanations have been obtained, after which they should be returned to their boxes.

so when I am called to the table about this I will say that picking up the bidding cards before there are three consecutive passes on the table is an infraction of law, and warn the player not to do that again. If he does do it again, and I am called, I give him a PP for the second (and any further) such transgressions.

In this case, as he has not called, I let him make his desired call.

A case might be made for opener not saying anything until the opening lead is made, and then calling the director for a premature lead.

[campboy]

sanst, on 2015-June-26, 05:22, said:

It' simply not covered by the quote you gave. So, in England it also up to the TD.

No, it isn't. The TD can't decide that a call has been made unless some law or regulation empowers him to do so. This specific case isn't covered by any such regulation, so he can't.

It's not up to the TD in Holland either. If there's no regulation saying that standing on your head, or whatever, can constitute a pass, it can't.

[lamford]

sanst, on 2015-June-26, 05:22, said:

I would decide that the advancer has passed ...

I don't agree. In Holland, a call is considered to have been made when the bidding card(s) is removed from the bidding box with apparent intent. I certainly agree with campboy that the advancer has not passed, but I also think the EBU regulation on a "waft" in the pass out seat is illegal, as the above rule also applies in the EBU.

[sanst]

blackshoe, on 2015-June-26, 05:41, said:

The title of this topic specifies EBU

Sorry, didn't notice that, just the 'Netherlands' on the left.

[sanst]

lamford, on 2015-June-26, 08:07, said:

I don't agree. In Holland, a call is considered to have been made when the bidding card(s) is removed from the bidding box with apparent intent. I certainly agree with campboy that the advancer has not passed, but I also think the EBU regulation on a "waft" in the pass out seat is illegal, as the above rule also applies in the EBU.

So, the player in the pass out seat has, without making a call, put the bidding cards back in the box, as has everybody else, the lead is face-down on the table and that player says "Hold on, I'm going to bid". You are going to allow that?
I think something like law 45C4a is also needed for calls.

[pran]

sanst, on 2015-June-26, 09:03, said:

So, the player in the pass out seat has, without making a call, put the bidding cards back in the box, as has everybody else, the lead is face-down on the table and that player says "Hold on, I'm going to bid". You are going to allow that?
I think something like law 45C4a is also needed for calls.

WBFLC has condoned the practice of a player in the pass-out seat ending the auction by picking up his bid cards signifying that he passes.

That is far from the problem in this thread, the player was not in the pass-out seat.

However, note that if his LHO who indeed was in the pass-out seat had also (subsequently) picked up his bid cards then that action would definitely have closed the auction with 2♠X as the contract to be played.

(I am wondering if the first player who picked up his bid cards should have been ruled to having passed and that Law 25 should come into action if he then wanted to make a different call in the actual situation. This possibility is not as far as I can see covered by the WBFLC minute.)

[RMB1]

pran, on 2015-June-26, 09:21, said:

(I am wondering if the first player who picked up his bid cards should have been ruled to having passed and that Law 25 should come into action if he then wanted to make a different call in the actual situation. This possibility is not as far as I can see covered by the WBFLC minute.)

OMG

I just made a similar suggestion in an email to gordonTD: anything that looks like a Pass is (defined by bidding box regulation to be) a Pass; if it was not intended as a Pass apply Law 25A.

[nige1]

RMB1, on 2015-June-26, 11:37, said:

anything that looks like a Pass is (defined by bidding box regulation to be.

Apparently that daft rule applies only in the pass-out seat. And it should not even apply there. Directors should enforce the rule that bidding-cards (including the last pass-card) remain on the table until the opening lead is faced, by penalizing rule-breakers, Sensible bidding-box rules (including alert and stop-card rules) should be specified in the law-book. There should be no need for each regulating-authority to concoct its own half-baked version.

[barmar]

campboy, on 2015-June-26, 06:24, said:

No, it isn't. The TD can't decide that a call has been made unless some law or regulation empowers him to do so. This specific case isn't covered by any such regulation, so he can't.

There are a number of things that are not explicitly condoned by Laws, but are so common that it would be futile for directors to punish them routinely. So the de facto rule is that if it seems like a pass, it's a pass. (I suspect this is where Law 46 came from -- the Lawmakers got tired of incomplete designations of dummy's cards being allowed tacitly, so they added a law that reflects the common practice).

And what often happens is one player starts picking up his bidding cards, and the others, without really thinking about it, follow along. If one of the copycats is the player in the pass-out seat, then the conditions of the EBU regulation are met.

[weejonnie]

1) Isn't the question "Have you passed partner?" UI and cannot be used by the advancer?
2) Therefore the advancer has to pretend they haven't heard it and play a card.
3) Then we get into the fun part of card exposed during auction.

[helene_t]

barmar, on 2015-June-26, 13:01, said:

And what often happens is one player starts picking up his bidding cards, and the others, without really thinking about it, follow along. If one of the copycats is the player in the pass-out seat, then the conditions of the EBU regulation are met.

Yes but if the first pick-up isn't deemed to be a "pass" because it was a "I thought the auction had ended", then a subsequent pick-up by another play is a POOT, isn't it? I don't mean to say that the subsequent pick-up'er should suffer consequences of his POOT since he was mislead by the opponent. But the auction finishes only when three players have passed. That the last of the three passes is not sufficient.

weejonnie, on 2015-June-26, 13:42, said:

1) Isn't the question "Have you passed partner?" UI and cannot be used by the advancer?
2) Therefore the advancer has to pretend they haven't heard it and play a card.
3) Then we get into the fun part of card exposed during auction.

But in this case it was not partner but opener who asked "Are you passing?". So it is AI.

[weejonnie]

helene_t, on 2015-June-26, 14:53, said:

Yes but if the first pick-up isn't deemed to be a "pass" because it was a "I thought the auction had ended", then a subsequent pick-up by another play is a POOT, isn't it? I don't mean to say that the subsequent pick-up'er should suffer consequences of his POOT since he was mislead by the opponent. But the auction finishes only when three players have passed. That the last of the three passes is not sufficient.


But in this case it was not partner but opener who asked "Are you passing?". So it is AI.

Sorry - mea culpa.

The EBU gives guidance about the use of bidding boxes - As far as I am aware no call has been made so advancer can make any call they like.

Quote

Starting with the dealer, players place their calls on the table in front of them, from the left and neatly overlapping, so that all calls are visible and faced towards partner. Players should refrain from touching any cards in the box until they have determined their call. A call is considered to have been made when the call is removed from the bidding box with apparent intent (but the TD may apply Law 25).

(Law 25 applies to changes of calls)

[campboy]

lamford, on 2015-June-26, 08:07, said:

I don't agree. In Holland, a call is considered to have been made when the bidding card(s) is removed from the bidding box with apparent intent. I certainly agree with campboy that the advancer has not passed, but I also think the EBU regulation on a "waft" in the pass out seat is illegal, as the above rule also applies in the EBU.

I don't see why that makes the regulation illegal. The business of a call being made when removed from the bidding box with apparent intent isn't some higher-level rule that the "waft" regulation conflicts with; they're two parts of the exact same regulation (WB 1.6.2).

[blackshoe]

is Law 46B illegal because of Law 46A then? It seems to me it's essentially the same scenario.

[pran]

blackshoe, on 2015-June-27, 00:27, said:

is Law 46B illegal because of Law 46A then? [...].

Of course not.

Law 46B prescribes in detail the applicable rectifications for a violation of Law 46A.

[blackshoe]

And the second part of the EBU regulation we're discussing tells how to rectify one particular violation of the earlier part of the regulation. What's the difference?